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Thread: Hybrid Oil

  1. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by vsabio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RyanHughes View Post
    I just checked 4-ton heat pump matchups with the XR13, XL14i and XL15i, and I did not see one matchup using the 4TXCC044 coil.
    Nice job of translating from what I wrote (which, IIRC, was "4TXCW44xx," because that's what it looks like on the written estimate) to the correct identifier -- which, upon closer inspection, really does look like "4TXCC044."
    On a second read of that comment, it might not have come out the way I'd intended. It was supposed to be kudo, not a snide remark.

    Quote Originally Posted by vsabio View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RyanHughes View Post
    I just checked 4-ton heat pump matchups with the XR13, XL14i and XL15i, and I did not see one matchup using the 4TXCC044 coil. Whatever system you get, make sure it is an ARI-rated matchup and get the ARI rating number.
    Whoa ... I Googled and found the AHRI site and their ARI match page ... but I'll be damned if I can figure it out from there. I'll ask the installer for this information.
    I talked to the installer about this, and he reminded me that there are only two coils that fit my furnace -- one Trane and one Carrier. I selected the Trane for the warranty, and wanted a 15-SEER heat pump, hence the match-up that he provided. He said he would call Trane to see what they said about the match.

    Quote Originally Posted by vsabio View Post
    There's a lot more to this HVAC stuff than meets the eye.
    I now know more about heat pumps than I ever knew existed, and I've barely scraped the surface. Now I might need to dig a little deeper: My wife (who is clearly the smarter and better-looking half of the marriage) suffered a bit of sticker shock on the cost of the hybrid system, and wants to know approximately how long it's going to take to reach the break-even point. A very reasonable question, actually. There's lots of information that I've found in the archives on how to compute the crossover point; and, of course, I'll have to wing it on the cost projections for oil, electric, etc. What I need is a rough estimate -- or an accurate figure, if someone knows it -- of the instantaneous power consumption of the Trane XL15i 48-ton HP with the 4TXCC044 coil. By "instantaneous," I mean that I am looking for a power consumption in Watts or KVA (preferably Watts, since that's what the utility company bills for) during sustained operation (not start-up). I don't need to know kilowatt-hours; I can estimate that from the instantaneous power and some rough guesses (read: SWAGs) about the load-vs.-time profile.

    Since most everything else in the calculation will be a guesstimate, I won't need an accurate figure for the HP's power consumption. I just need to know ballpark ... should I use 2kW? 5kW? 10kW? That sort of thing. I tried to find this info on Trane's site, but either I'm blind (always a possibility) or they're not terribly fond of posting this sort of information.

    Many thanks....

    - V

  2. #28
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    On a second read of that comment, it might not have come out the way I'd intended. It was supposed to be kudo, not a snide remark.
    I didn't take it as a snide remark.

    I talked to the installer about this, and he reminded me that there are only two coils that fit my furnace -- one Trane and one Carrier. I selected the Trane for the warranty, and wanted a 15-SEER heat pump, hence the match-up that he provided. He said he would call Trane to see what they said about the match.
    Tell him you want a coil that is an ARI-rated match for the system. Ask him to provide an ARI reference number for whatever system he is quoting. The 44k BTU coil may not be a good match for some 4-ton heat pumps. That coil is used with 3.5-ton units typically (I just checked ARI, and the coil tends to be matched with 3/3.5-ton units--maybe less, but I didn't go through all 180+ matchups).

  3. #29
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    You don't use the KW to figure cost of operation like you think you would.
    Use the SEER rating and the HSPF.

    Both have their draw backs.

    Try this site.
    http://www.hvacopcost.com/

    It will give you a ruff idea.
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  4. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
    You don't use the KW to figure cost of operation like you think you would.
    Use the SEER rating and the HSPF.

    Both have their draw backs.

    Try this site.
    http://www.hvacopcost.com/

    It will give you a ruff idea.
    That site has power consumption embedded in their calculations; you just don't happen to see it. :-) But they're using a cost-of-energy calculation -- and, for electric, the utility company charges solely for KWH (not even KVAH, which would make more sense -- and more money). One cannot estimate the cost to operate a heat pump without making some assumptions that lead to a KWH estimate -- i.e., a KW estimate and a number-of-hours-to-operate estimate. The SEER and HSPF factors contribute (inversely) to the number-of-hours-to-operate estimate; you still need KW to get to KWH.

    The hvacopcost site is interesting, but its calculation assumes that you are _replacing_ equipment; it doesn't take the hybrid option into account AFAICT.

    A quick Google search turned up lots of information on Priuses and CFLs, but no hybrid-heating calculators. (darn) So I'm back to needing the instantaneous power consumption for the heat pump and coil, and can "roll my own" calculation from there (probably a little more accurately, too, since I can model it on actual usage, albeit oil-furnace usage).

    - V

  5. #31
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    They use KWH, but they use the SEER and HSPF to come up with an a KWH consumtion.

    Also on heat pumps there is a COP that comes into play, for the different OD temps you may be operating at.

    You can't go by just the heat pumps KW rating.

    A HP At 17*F OD temp may consume 2KWH, and deliver 13,652 BTUs
    But at 47*F OD temp, for that same 2KWH, it delivers 20,478 BTUs.
    So if you go just by KWH, you would come up with the same operating cost at both temps. But in reality, at 47*, to deliver the same BTUs of heat as it did at 17*, it only used 1.32 KWH of electric.

    Works the same in the summer, just not as big of a spread on the BTUs to the KWH.

    You need the system model numbers to know what the KW rating is. OD unit and ID coil matches have different KW rating for BTU in heating and cooling.
    Your contractor should have all teh specs for the system match up he proposes.

    Your furnaces blowe should be some where around .7 KW.
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  6. #32
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    The latest development in this thread: Another prospective contractor (telephone conversation while setting up appt) commented that Trane's Puron systems have a very high failure rate -- about 40%. He said that his company, which is ostensibly one of the largest Trane dealers in Virginia, is considering dropping them if they don't get their Puron issues resolved.

    He said that if I want to go with Trane*, I should stick with their R22 systems.

    Is there any truth to this? I tried Googling for information on high Trane failure rates, but was not able to find any corroborating data.

    The adventure continues....

    Thanks,
    Vince

    * I actually want a Puron/R410A system; I'm not committed to any particular manufacturer.

  7. #33
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    I haven't heard abouot it.
    Nothing about it in the Pro Tech forums you can't get into either.
    And it would be mentioned there if there was a big problem.

    Not to bust on that contractor. But he may be over stocked with R22 units and trying to get rid of them. Instead of having to pay for an R410A unit.

    Haven't heard of any other brand having excess trouble with R410A units either.
    Perjaps time to look for another contractor.
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  8. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
    I haven't heard abouot it.
    Nothing about it in the Pro Tech forums you can't get into either.
    And it would be mentioned there if there was a big problem.

    Not to bust on that contractor. But he may be over stocked with R22 units and trying to get rid of them. Instead of having to pay for an R410A unit.

    Haven't heard of any other brand having excess trouble with R410A units either.
    Perjaps time to look for another contractor.
    Thanks. It sounded a little fishy to me, especially when I couldn't find even a mention about it via Google search.

    I agree that this one isn't sounding so good; I'll probably cancel the appt I have with him. It's not easy finding a good contractor who has experience with hybrid systems. (One of the prospective contractors who called to set up an appt: I told him that I had an oil furnace with an air conditioner, and wanted to convert it to a hybrid system. He replied by asking, "What's a hybrid system?" I didn't set up an appt with him.)

    Many thanks for all the info/feedback...

    - V

  9. #35
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    Next step in this adventure: I now have quotes from three prospective contractors, with two more on the way.

    Two of them have quoted Carrier systems. Both quoted Carrier coil CNPVP4821ATA, but they quoted different HPs (and SEER figures for the combination):

    Contractor #1: 25HPA548A003 (quoted as 15 SEER)
    Contractor #2: 25HNA648A003 (quoted as 16 SEER)

    Any insight into the differences in HPs and SEER figures? Note that this is being paired with a single-speed oil furnace.

    Mein Dank,
    Vince

  10. #36
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    Installing an Infinity 2-stage unit on a single-stage oil furnace is senseless to me. Is the current furnace variable speed? If it is, then it might make sense. Just the Infinity 16 heat pump with that coil gets 13.50 SEER, 10.70 EER and 8.70 HSPF (ARI Ref. # 882700). The Performance 15 heat pump would provide 14.00 SEER, 12.00 EER and 8.30 HSPF (ARI Ref. # 904340).

  11. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanHughes View Post
    Installing an Infinity 2-stage unit on a single-stage oil furnace is senseless to me.
    The Infinity 2-stage is the 25HN, correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by RyanHughes View Post
    Is the current furnace variable speed?
    No, the current furnace is a single stage Armstrong unit.

    Quote Originally Posted by RyanHughes View Post
    If it is, then it might make sense. Just the Infinity 16 heat pump with that coil gets 13.50 SEER, 10.70 EER and 8.70 HSPF (ARI Ref. # 882700). The Performance 15 heat pump would provide 14.00 SEER, 12.00 EER and 8.30 HSPF (ARI Ref. # 904340).
    So if I try to translate this, you are suggesting that the Performance 15 HP with that coil would be a better pair to the single-stage furnace? Which means that Contractor #1's system appears (all other things being equal) to be better than Contractor #2's system?

    As always, thank you for the feedback/info!

    - V

  12. #38
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    The Infinity 2-stage is the 25HN, correct?
    Yes, the 25HNA is the model for the Infinity 16, and the 25HPA is the model for the Performance 15 (heat pumps).

    So if I try to translate this, you are suggesting that the Performance 15 HP with that coil would be a better pair to the single-stage furnace? Which means that Contractor #1's system appears (all other things being equal) to be better than Contractor #2's system?
    Yes, I don't see any point in investing more money into a dual-stage system with a single-stage furnace with no variable-speed blower. You won't get the best efficiency, and the Infinity 16 is really meant to be paired with a matched Infinity system. The Performance 15 would be a better choice to go with what you have now.

  13. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyanHughes View Post
    Yes, I don't see any point in investing more money into a dual-stage system with a single-stage furnace with no variable-speed blower. You won't get the best efficiency, and the Infinity 16 is really meant to be paired with a matched Infinity system. The Performance 15 would be a better choice to go with what you have now.
    Makes perfect sense.

    Next question: I'm planning to split my single-zone setup into a two-zone configuration. Given that my current ductwork setup has two trunks, which serve the two different sides of the house, a two-zone setup is easily implemented with a pair of electric dampers. Contractor 1 is proposing to use EWC Ultrazone dampers, while Contractor 2 is proposing Honeywell's dampers. Honeywell's system appears to be less expen$ive -- but I've heard (over the years) less-than-stellar things about Honeywell's controls ... it sounds as if their quality has dropped significantly in the past decade or so. Any thoughts on this and/or feedback on the different dampering systems?

    Thanks...!

    - V

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