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  1. #40
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    DC Metro Area (MD)
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    3,371
    Quote Originally Posted by twilli3967 View Post
    Us bottom feeders
    Twilli's new favorite phrase?

  2. #41
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    68,108
    Quote Originally Posted by twilli3967 View Post
    Twilli says leave him alone he's a PE and your a PEON. Us bottom feeders don't know all them nifty tricks
    Can I be a bottom feeder too. Please, pretty please.
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    How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?

  3. #42
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    manitowoc wisconsin
    Posts
    4,943
    I am surprised in these types of discussions why you don't seem to see P.O.E. mentioned more.P.O.E. is an EXCELLANT cleaner.
    Any garbage in the old lineset will get washed out & end up in the system.
    How many times have you cut into a lineset to see a light black film on the walls?
    What do you think this would do to the life expectancy of a new unit once it is wiped clean from the piping & circulating in the oil?
    Did the first guy use nitrogen?
    How much oxidation from not using nitro will be dislodged into the new system?
    It is just a poor choice for more than one reason!!!
    Take your time & do it right!

  4. #43
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Emerald Coast, FL 30.1N 85.8W
    Posts
    681

    this is 1 reason Carrier suggest a drier before the txv

    I've only installed a few dozen 410 system upgrades from 22 and all but 3 of them I've installed new line sets.

    So far i've had no problems with the 3 with a nitro purge & triple evac.

    Quote Originally Posted by dash View Post
    We have installed a great number of Puron/R410a systems,we see TXV "tar" failures in new construcion and replacement ,new copper in RNC ,and old copper reused in replacement.

    We have sold these systems since the late 1990,s,and never noticed a TXv issue until 2006 when so many manufacturers went with TXV's for the 13 SER minimum.

    I wish some one would determine what the "tar" like substance is caused by.If we only found it in RNC or replacements ,I agree that it could be the copper/mineral oil,but that's not the case.

  5. #44
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Emerald Coast, FL 30.1N 85.8W
    Posts
    681
    you can't -- I swear if i ever saw a tech follow installation instructions, i'd faint.

    I've used the same line sets on Payne systems, but I always change the line sets on Carriers equipment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Llama View Post
    I'm not communicating something well I guess.

    How does the homeowner determine if the manufacturer's install instructions have been met? In this example, what are Carrier's install instructions?

    As I have said above, the installer appears to be planning on reusing the existing lines, knowing full well that the old set is R22 and that the new set is R410a.

    I fully plan on being down in the basement with the installer the entire time, but other than a few specific items I have read about here I will have no idea what to ask him or if he is doing what he says.

    How do I determine if the manufacturer's install instructions have been met? How do I protect myself from the installer failing to comply with the manufacturer's install instructions?

    "Pick a good installer" is certainly insufficient because what that usually means is "Pick an installer as good as me"; neither recommendation actively protects the homeowner from installer error.

  6. #45
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Emerald Coast, FL 30.1N 85.8W
    Posts
    681

    Carrier wants a drier prior to the txv and a suction drier

    On the Carrier install manuals i've read, it suggests a drier placed before the txv & a suction drier.

    Quote Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
    Carrier doesn't require new line set. I believe they are the one that doesn't want RX11 flush used either, just a nitro blow out.

    Ask the installer what the install instructions say about re using the old line set.
    Its your system, your money.

  7. #46
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    68,108
    Quote Originally Posted by emcoasthvacr View Post
    On the Carrier install manuals i've read, it suggests a drier placed before the txv & a suction drier.
    I would have to recheck, I do'r recall teh suction drier. But that could just be bad memory.
    I was mostly refering to the part, that they don't want a chemical flush done.
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  8. #47
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Toledo, Ohio, United States
    Posts
    12,911
    Twilli ran 3 stops signs today and didn't get in a wreck, Twilli ain't stoppin for none tommorrow
    No Heat No Cool You need Action Fast

  9. #48
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Emerald Coast, FL 30.1N 85.8W
    Posts
    681

    i'd rather change line sets than r11 flush

    when I quote the customer the cost of a new line set, it's definitely cheaper for the customer for me to spend an hour or so to change driers and vacuum down during PM -- the customer pays for the driers & extra time.

    Nitrogen purge will get most of it out, and a few degrees drop on a drier doesn't brake my heart either. I'm scared to not change line sets on Carrier's performance or Infinity systems.

    I save the customer several hundred dollars, and I get a PM contract

    I love it

    Quote Originally Posted by aintitfun View Post
    emcoasthvacr, You think it is more cost effective to go back and change driers, than just using the proper method of rx11 flush! Is it really that difficult and expensive to do it right? You readilly admit that you think you have seen some signs that you are mixing the oils, but what the hell , its just a little temperature drop across driers! Whats next, ditching the vacum pump, it would save you time, and lets face it, those vacum pumps are not cheap, its only a little moisture/non-condensables, I know we can just change the driers out at pm time. COME ON!

  10. #49
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    352
    Suggest and require may be taken out of context here.
    Let's go over it again.

    If a manufacturer requires a certain way of completing a task:
    That normally means, this is the only way we will accept it to be done, per manufacturer, per warranty.....etc

    This in no way means there aren't other feasible ways of doing the job, it only states the accepted ways to them.

    If a manufacturer suggests it's kind of like saying "this will work."

    I think somewhere along the line this post got mis con strued due to the fact that people do things differently.

  11. #50
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    352
    Quote Originally Posted by emcoasthvacr View Post
    when I quote the customer the cost of a new line set, it's definitely cheaper for the customer for me to spend an hour or so to change driers and vacuum down during PM.

    Nitrogen purge will get most of it out, and a few degrees drop on a drier doesn't brake my heart either.

    I save the customer several hundred dollars, and I get a PM contract

    I love it
    Exactly....this killed my job so many times the H.O. chose to stay with 22 or wait till next year.

    If you say "we have a way to save your lines" the job is done "the right way" and works great.

    The tech who has lost a job over 50 bucks, looks for an option that will "fly."

  12. #51
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Bay Area, CA
    Posts
    843
    Lots of improperly sized lines around here, so they get changed if we dont have to do major remodel work, or we leave the old line set in and run it on the outside if the homeowner doesnt mind the sheetmetal cover.

    If sized properly or not cost effective to replace, then flush, by specs, rx11 in then nitrogen. Vacuum with a micron gauge, but thats regardless of new or old linesets. More nitrogen if theres still moisture in the lines.

    I've not seen anyone recomend a double filter drier on a residential system unless cleaning up a burnout. Then they recomend removing the suction drier in a few days of run time. I also change filter driers at 3 degrees of differential, so I dont know how a few degrees is ok for a system.
    Global Warming or: None like it hot
    No pleasure, no rapture, no exquisite sin greater... than central air. -Dogma

  13. #52
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia
    Posts
    14
    Forgive me if I'm wrong. (Flame away)
    But I thought that the major reason for replacing your refrigeration pipework when converting from R22 to R410A refrigerant was because the cu pipe used for R22 have a thinner wall than R410A refrigerant piping.
    Due to the much higher (practically double) pressures incurred with R410A, we are told here in Oz the R22 pipe can not take the pressure and then will split/crack/leak.
    This is apart from the oil issue.

    We have always changed pipework, no matter if walls have had to be removed to do so.
    Is this different in the U.S?

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