Riello BF5 or F5 burner?

[dbuck50]

I'm going to have my oil burner replaced on my Weil-McLain WGTO3 tankless.
I was planning on having the Riello F5 as the replacement, but wondered if there would be any benefit to having the BF5 (balanced flue) instead? I know an outside vent and piping would have to be put in to duct the intake, but would there be any benefit to doing this? My tech pretty is indifferent, which makes me think he doesn't really know and I don't have many options for oil tech's where I live.

[beenthere]

As you know, we can't talk price its self.

But, did your tech, or his company do a ROI for you.
How much oil did you use last year. How many years will it take for you to break even, if oil goes up a dollar a year.
Would another lower cost burner get close to the efficiency of the Reilllo at half the cost.

What is your electric rate. Boilers with tankless coils are a big waste of oil.






Outside combustion air always improve fuel utilization. May not pay back very fast on houses with high natural infiltration rates though.

[dbuck50]

They didn't do any ROI, they are suggesting that I can use the new burner (I need one anyway) with the conventional chimney I have and do a horizontal intake from outside on the wall. The other option is just use the F5 and it will be using inside air.

I am figuring the outside air is the better option, since I wouldn't be heating it. The only additional cost in this is apparently the venting for the intake to the wall. But again, this isn't a balance flue deal, it is conventional chimney and sealed horizontal vent to the outside.

[beenthere]

Using outdoor air for combustion will reduce house infitration and save a small amount on your heating bill.

What burner do you currently have.

[dbuck50]

I have the weil QB-180, which has had some issues and not been very reliable.

I wasn't sure if the horizontal intake would not be doable with the conventional chimney. But can't see why it wouldn't be.

I also asked the tech whether the tankless is wasting oil. He said since it is just me and my wife, probably not. We haven't had and issues with hot water availability. We used about 600 gallons of oil last year and it is a 1600sq. ft house that is well insulated. I did wonder though whether shutting off one coil would make sense and adding a superstor tank would be worth it. Probably need an ROI on that to see if it would be worth it.

[beenthere]

WTGO3 should only have one domestic tankless coil.
The QB was a bad burner.
Depending on your electric rate, and price per gallion of oil. An electric water heater woill save more then a superstore.
Electric water heaters have no standby loss like your boiler does. They don't have the high recovery rate of an indirect either. But with just 2 people, you chouldn't need 130 gallions of hot water in an hour either.

At 11.2 cents per kilowatt, an oil boiler with oil at 4 dollars a gallion would have to be at 87% efficiency to run as cheap as the electric.

Things to consider that an oil company may not point out to you.





PS: The QB, despite its reliability issues was usually 82 to 83% efficient combustion wise.
So the Reillo its self will not save you much over a less expesive upfront cost Beckett, or Carlin burner.

[dbuck50]

Ha, my tech told me that these have 2 coils--one domestic hot water and one for heat. I looked it up and you are right! He is a very nice guy, but I think he is not familiar with my setup other than cleaning. It seems like the tankless coil is just a larger heating coil? Is it kind of like a little indirect inside of my boiler??
Your earlier comment was that tankless oil boilers wasted a lot of oil. I am paying .15 cents a KWH. Would you still recommend an electric water heater or doing something else to the boiler based on that info?

[beenthere]

The tankless coil, is basically a coil of copper tubing imersed in the water that heats your house.

An indirect would have a heat exchanger between the water that heats your house, and the domestic hot water.

How much was your oil per gallion last time you got oil?

[dbuck50]

I paid 3.75/gallon 2 months ago. I'm afraid to think what it is now and what the plan rates will be this year.

I finally get the tankless part...thank you for explaining that.

[beenthere]

No problem.


At your electric rate, and oil at 4 bucks a gal, the oil is still cheaper for hot water on paper.

I think you'll find that electric may be the way to go. Due to the higher temp you usually have to maintain in your boiler in the winter. And the amount of heat that you lose up the chimney keeping your boiler that hot.

[dbuck50]

Do you mean oil in the tankless setup that I have, or modified with a indirect water tank? and maybe a better burner?

[beenthere]

I would stop using the tankless.
Hook up an electric water heater. I would pipe it so either the boiler or electric could be used to heat the water. Just incase electric sky rockets.
Replace the QB for reliability, I'd go with Beckett or Carlin myself.
And I would disable the aquastats reverse action limit.(Your tech should know how to do that)
Disabling that will stop the boiler from maintaining temp 24/7. The burner will only run during a heat call from the stat.

[dbuck50]

I appreciate your advice and knowledge. Thank you very much.

[beenthere]

No problem.

[noncondensibles]

I appreciate your advice and knowledge. Thank you very much.

I just started reading this and agree lose the tankless coil and get a indirect and a honeywell 4006 aquastat to cold fire the boiler when a call for heating from the house or the indirect calls for heat. you will see your oil bill drop doing this! why waste the energy of having the boiler maintain 180 degrees? Just my opinion I have converted my parnets to this same set up.

[beenthere]

No need to get a L4006, you just rewire teh triple to bypass the reverse action/low limit.
Works the same as an L4006 then. Takes one minute if you milk it.

[dbuck50]

Won't the cold firing of the boiler be hard on the boiler if it is waiting for heat or hot water calls? I always thought that they need to stay hot to be relatively efficient (at least in firing).

Also, do you literally remove the tankless coil in doing this method? or just not use it.

[beenthere]

Just don't use it.

If your going to cold fire a boiler.Some evaluation should be done.
The burner needs set up to burn clean, not just an eye set up.
And some times a thermal bypass needs added to temper the water.
Most baseboard systems don't hold enough water to effect the boiler.
Cast Iron rad systems generally need a thermal bypass.

A boiler is less efficient when the water temp is at 180*, then when the water is at 140*.
The colder it gets outside, the warmer the boiler stays between heat calls.

Most steam boilers are cold fired.

[dbuck50]

OK, so if I understand this correctly, the tankless coil gets capped off, and the indirect is used as a new zone to provide domestic HW. My existing combination of baseboard and radiant heat zones still operate as is---and I'm guessing indirects don't need to be at 180 to be effective.

The end result should be that my boiler operates less frequently for DHW, but will operate the same for heating needs but only when called on. Since I supplement my heat with my wood stove, I am thinking I should see less oil use than I have in the past.

I just got my electric bill last night...it is up to $.18 now...ouch.

[beenthere]

Yes, thats the way it operates with an indirect.

Wow, that is a painfull electric rate.