Help! I am in serious trouble!

[Mr Bill]

I had a similar problem if the unit has a GE ECM motor it could be bad bearing in motor. If it is an ecm motor you can fine tune the airflow without no problems but he will have to adjust charge.

[WorryWart]

Look we know you spent you hard earned money to get this done and we are not making light of that, most of us here are just working folks so we do understand, so please don't take our sort of humor to serious, we sincerely feel sorry for you that this has happened and the person that installed this should come back and correct some of this mess.
Peace
Mr. Bill

Awww, thanks Mr. Bill. I know it's all in good fun and I quit crying over it about an hour ago.

Of course, I'll start crying again when I wake up in the morning and the guy comes out and says he doesn't see a problem with the install! Ack!

[WorryWart]

I had a similar problem if the unit has a GE ECM motor it could be bad bearing in motor. If it is an ecm motor you can fine tune the airflow without no problems but he will have to adjust charge.

Don't know the difference. Does anyone know what kind of motor my unit has and if this would apply?

[tinknocker service tech]

Twiili says call a lawyer and sue, Twilli used to be lawyer

twilli i heard you sued yourself and defended your self and still lost wth

[Shophound]

Back to the problem raised in the OP..."droning" noise. I've heard certain air handler blower wheels magnify the running bearing noise of the motor attached to the wheel. Nothing wrong with the motor, either. The metal "drum" that attaches the blower wheel cage to the motor hub can act as a resonance chamber, causing a "revolving droning" sound, especially noticeable if the house has metal ductwork. My father-in-law's AR61 Goodman air handler does this. When he bought the house it had all metal ducts in it. The noise about drove us mad. I replaced sections of metal with flex to attenuate the noise. It's now MUCH better. You can still hear the "revolving drone" by the air handler, but not throughout the house.

[WorryWart]

Back to the problem raised in the OP..."droning" noise. I've heard certain air handler blower wheels magnify the running bearing noise of the motor attached to the wheel. Nothing wrong with the motor, either. The metal "drum" that attaches the blower wheel cage to the motor hub can act as a resonance chamber, causing a "revolving droning" sound, especially noticeable if the house has metal ductwork. My father-in-law's AR61 Goodman air handler does this. When he bought the house it had all metal ducts in it. The noise about drove us mad. I replaced sections of metal with flex to attenuate the noise. It's now MUCH better. You can still hear the "revolving drone" by the air handler, but not throughout the house.

Hmmmmm...that's interesting. Is there anyway to insulate the ductwork to produce the same result? I would be concerned about (a) cost and (b) durability of the flex.

[Mr Bill]

Look it's easy to find out if it's air flow related or freon pumping through the lines. Heres what you do go outside and "hopefully" you have a disconnect on your outside condenser well flip that sucker off, if no disconnect well kill the breaker to the outside unit and then go back in and turn on the unit inside to the fan on position on the thermostat and see if you still hear the noise.

As I stated earlier doing this would rule out one or the other.

[WorryWart]

As I stated earlier doing this would rule out one or the other.

Yup, you did! And I didn't! (check it out). I was too afraid to foul around with the switches. Will have to ask my husband to do it when daylight breaks. Sorry for not following through on that immediately...it would certainly have eliminated one possibility.

[tinknocker service tech]

worry you do have good equipment and mrbill is right we do care
it also realy pisses some of us off bigtime wen someone does work like that

makes us all look bad imo

tat issues you have are mostly minor with the exception of the wire for the condensate pump that is a real biggy imo


say minor doesnt mean i am down playing any of them it means the unit will run but down the road these issues will cause problems you shouldnt be having.

the guy if he is ligit will step up and fix the issues

the instalation book that came with both pieces of equipment will explain in detail and also give ilastations of every thing we are saying

it also will give you the size you need for the refrigerant lines

he can not argue with that

[WorryWart]

worry you do have good equipment and mrbill is right we do care
it also realy pisses some of us off bigtime wen someone does work like that

makes us all look bad imo

tat issues you have are mostly minor with the exception of the wire for the condensate pump that is a real biggy imo


say minor doesnt mean i am down playing any of them it means the unit will run but down the road these issues will cause problems you shouldnt be having.

the guy if he is ligit will step up and fix the issues

the instalation book that came with both pieces of equipment will explain in detail and also give ilastations of every thing we are saying

it also will give you the size you need for the refrigerant lines

he can not argue with that

Okay, big surprise....

I just went down to see if the books were in the pouch on the unit....but it is empty! No manuals!

Oh my goodness, I am so in trouble.

[WorryWart]

Tinknocker,

Dumb question #492: Where is the condensate pump? Is that the pump on the floor in front of the blower? They didn't replace that--was here when the A.C was. Maybe again they didn't feel like doing the extra work to rewire?

[Shophound]

Hmmmmm...that's interesting. Is there anyway to insulate the ductwork to produce the same result? I would be concerned about (a) cost and (b) durability of the flex.

Is all of your ductwork of sheet metal construction now?

Flex duct must be sized properly and installed tightly. You would also not need to replace all of the metal ductwork, only the last six feet or so to each supply vent in each room. That's what I did at my FIL's house, for the most part, except the one section of trunk I replaced with a length of flex, as it was easier than doing each supply vent. It worked just fine.

Here was the full situation that made my FIL's house unbearable until the modifications were made:

• The construction of the air handler has the blower wheel and motor above the indoor coil.
• The plenum above the air handler going into the attic is insulated on the outside, not the inside. There is no insulation on the inside to attenuate noise. With this type of duct design (radial), exterior insulation on the plenum is normal and expected.
• All of the ducts feeding out from the centralized supply plenum were round metal duct, externally insulated. Nothing to dampen both blower and duct noise.
• Supply grills were stamped steel variety, which are restrictive and can create a "rushing" sound when too much air is forced through the vanes.
• The nature of the blower wheel described in my last post was transmitted throughout the entire house, along with noise of air traveling through the ducts.
• "Crosstalk" was also a problem, where people talking in the front part of the house could be heard through the supply vents by people in the back part of the house.

After my modifications, all of the above problems disappeared, except for localized mechanical noise at the air handler. Being that it's in a hallway, it is not objectionable.

[WorryWart]

Is all of your ductwork of sheet metal construction now?

Flex duct must be sized properly and installed tightly. You would also not need to replace all of the metal ductwork, only the last six feet or so to each supply vent in each room. That's what I did at my FIL's house, for the most part, except the one section of trunk I replaced with a length of flex, as it was easier than doing each supply vent. It worked just fine.

Here was the full situation that made my FIL's house unbearable until the modifications were made:

• The construction of the air handler has the blower wheel and motor above the indoor coil.
• The plenum above the air handler going into the attic is insulated on the outside, not the inside. There is no insulation on the inside to attenuate noise. With this type of duct design (radial), exterior insulation on the plenum is normal and expected.
• All of the ducts feeding out from the centralized supply plenum were round metal duct, externally insulated. Nothing to dampen both blower and duct noise.
• Supply grills were stamped steel variety, which are restrictive and can create a "rushing" sound when too much air is forced through the vanes.
• The nature of the blower wheel described in my last post was transmitted throughout the entire house, along with noise of air traveling through the ducts.
• "Crosstalk" was also a problem, where people talking in the front part of the house could be heard through the supply vents by people in the back part of the house.

After my modifications, all of the above problems disappeared, except for localized mechanical noise at the air handler. Being that it's in a hallway, it is not objectionable.

Thanks for the ideas!

Frankly, I don't know if all our ducting is metal....they are all pretty insulated if memory serves me, and do metal ducts come in round? I certainly hope that replacing ductwork will not be necessary....although the discussion on this thread leads me to believe it is certainly a possibility. I just don't know why the problem didn't arise with the previous unit!

I'll keep your checklist handy, in case the other fixes aren't effective.

[captube]

never mind i'm going to bed.

[WorryWart]

shophound...

Yeah, I see what you also had round, externally insulated radial ducts....Sounds like what we have... :-(

[WorryWart]

Originally Posted by Mr Bill View Post
Look it's easy to find out if it's air flow related or freon pumping through the lines. Heres what you do go outside and "hopefully" you have a disconnect on your outside condenser well flip that sucker off, if no disconnect well kill the breaker to the outside unit and then go back in and turn on the unit inside to the fan on position on the thermostat and see if you still hear the noise.
a

Yup, I will do this in the morning. So if it's not the refrigerant line, then I'll know it can be fixed by either adjusting blower speed or fixing duct problems. Am I finally getting it--please say I am! :-)

[Shophound]

shophound...

Yeah, I see what you also had round, externally insulated radial ducts....Sounds like what we have... :-(

The previous homeowners at my FIL's place had replaced the original Lennox equipment prior to FIL purchasing the house. No idea what the original tonnage was, but I have a feeling the replacement equipment was upsized. I ran load calcs on that house as it sat before I made mods and the equipment on the ground was oversized according to the load calc. Oversized equipment often means it moves more air than the original equipment. With all metal ducts, that extra air motion will manifest as unbearable noise.

[WorryWart]

The previous homeowners at my FIL's place had replaced the original Lennox equipment prior to FIL purchasing the house. No idea what the original tonnage was, but I have a feeling the replacement equipment was upsized. I ran load calcs on that house as it sat before I made mods and the equipment on the ground was oversized according to the load calc. Oversized equipment often means it moves more air than the original equipment. With all metal ducts, that extra air motion will manifest as unbearable noise.

Yeah, sounds like our dilemma. We upsized to a 3.5 heat pump (from a 3 ton A.C) and the only addition in finished area was 790 sq ft in basement.

We have an airflow problem into my son's bedroom, and there is only one vent in the basement. I wonder if adding a duct in each place would alleviate the pressure on existing vents? (I have NO hvac knowledge/experience, so please don't flame me on this one!)

[WorryWart]

never mind i'm going to bed.

I really appreciate your input and help! Have a good weekend.

I'll post an update (hopefully a happy one) at some point.

[WorryWart]

Thanks to all of you for being supportive, helpful and interested during my trauma. I'll keep you updated!