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  1. #1

    I LOVE YOU GUYS (and Gals, of course) !

    First, I wish to give you all my thanks! I Googled into this forum last night and spent several hours going through many great posts – and some very funny ones as well. You all saved me a whole lot of money and gave me the knowledge to ask contractors the right questions.

    This all started with the need to replace the air handler on my 15 year old Carrier heat pump system that finally had a debilitating stroke – poorly maintained and annually pumped up on R22 steroids by a local quack while it was suffering some major arterial bleeding with no good doctor to look after it. I shudder to think what my ozone footprint has been over the last four years living in this house! When it failed last week, I was fortunate enough to have a real pro take a look at it. There was nary a trace of Freon left in my old friend. The evap coils were leaking so badly it drained the batteries in his sniffer within 30 seconds. With skill of a surgeon, the tech was able to open the heat pump enclosure without it falling to pieces given all the rust and corrosion my lonely sentinel of cool had acquired. Yet another set of batteries were required for the sniffer outside. My quest had begun and so I started to try to get a little smarter (though I had not yet found you folks!)

    Being an engineer by profession, I was getting randy with all the manufacturer’s data tables and graphs. Like so many, I was going fat, dumb and happy down the SEER stream without a paddle. The good tech’s manager listened quietly as I proudly rattled off “two stage scroll”, the higher the SEER the better, variable speed blower, yada yada, yada. He quietly listened to my dribble and when I was through told me he thought I was making a mistake. Sure, if I wanted it, he would sell me a 16 or 20 something SEER unit with bells and whistles that would make the local symphony green with envy. But, I would be wasting my money. I listened to this guy and thought he was a nut. Plus, he sold the dreaded “Good Man” and “Am Ana” lines.

    The next day I contacted a “reputable” dealer and their sales person came out and without me saying a word – or him even coming inside the house to look in the attic - said I needed a 20 something SEER unit, high end blower, new this, new that, etc. (I am thinking he is on to something here…some type of telepathic skill at knowing how to instantly perform complex cost/trade off analysis on all the various units and my home’s needs – a new nanotechnology embedded Ouija board perhaps?). (As an aside, the gentleman spent more time telling me about the great pads that they were using than about what I was really spending my money on – should I have seen this as a bit of a clue?) Well, I thought, wow, I knew this guy was good!! Little did I realize that if I listened to him, I would also need to double the diameter of all sewer lines in the house to accommodate the poop he was spewing.

    So, just to make sure this human methane plant and I were right, I did some more Googling. I happened to stumble across some interesting articles from some of the CA utility firms (more graphs yippy!). But, they seemed to sort of agree with the good Tech’s nutty manager. Their position was that SEER and EER are not effective metrics for the real world. Say what?!? Then, I found this forum. You said, look at EER in TX, not SEER. I went back to the manufacturer’s charts and graphs. Interesting…in a lot of comparisons, while the SEER numbers went up smartly, there was much less delta in EER. More money for nothing in the armpit of TX?

    Well, to make a very long story a tad shorter. I closed the deal today with the company that employees the nut who tries to tell idiot consumers like me that I am wasting my money! No, I did not get a two-stage heat pump (I won’t live long enough to get the payback). Yes, I did go to a 14 SEER unit (mainly because the 13 SEER still used R22). Yes, I did go with the variable speed blower for comfort, not efficiency gains. Yes, I do believe this nut’s Tech’s are well trained and so I stand a much better chance at achieving something closer to stated efficiencies. And thanks to you guys, I saved more than some pocket change not going with the 21 SEER unit with it’s marvelous pad that would have a payback in 2303! Oh yes, I did go with one of those crappy “Am Ana” units – what the hell! You only live once!

    THANK YOU!

    Footnote – Yes, it’s 3:15am but too hot to sleep tonight! Relief comes tomorrow morning!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    SouthEast NC ICW & Piedmont Foothills
    Posts
    7,635
    congratulations!!!!!!!!!!

    we can be/ are an eccentric little group

    just what were you googling to take sooooooo long ro find this establishment?
    It`s better to be silent and thought the fool; than speak and remove all doubt.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Toledo, Ohio, United States
    Posts
    12,921
    You only need to google Twilli's name and it will direct you here.
    No Heat No Cool You need Action Fast

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Hell Hole Swamp
    Posts
    4,180
    Quote Originally Posted by twilli3967 View Post
    You only need to google Twilli's name and it will direct you here.
    I see you're in BNI also

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    999
    Quote Originally Posted by SETexan View Post
    First, I wish to give you all my thanks! I Googled into this forum last night and spent several hours going through many great posts – and some very funny ones as well. You all saved me a whole lot of money and gave me the knowledge to ask contractors the right questions.

    This all started with the need to replace the air handler on my 15 year old Carrier heat pump system that finally had a debilitating stroke – poorly maintained and annually pumped up on R22 steroids by a local quack while it was suffering some major arterial bleeding with no good doctor to look after it. I shudder to think what my ozone footprint has been over the last four years living in this house! When it failed last week, I was fortunate enough to have a real pro take a look at it. There was nary a trace of Freon left in my old friend. The evap coils were leaking so badly it drained the batteries in his sniffer within 30 seconds. With skill of a surgeon, the tech was able to open the heat pump enclosure without it falling to pieces given all the rust and corrosion my lonely sentinel of cool had acquired. Yet another set of batteries were required for the sniffer outside. My quest had begun and so I started to try to get a little smarter (though I had not yet found you folks!)

    Being an engineer by profession, I was getting randy with all the manufacturer’s data tables and graphs. Like so many, I was going fat, dumb and happy down the SEER stream without a paddle. The good tech’s manager listened quietly as I proudly rattled off “two stage scroll”, the higher the SEER the better, variable speed blower, yada yada, yada. He quietly listened to my dribble and when I was through told me he thought I was making a mistake. Sure, if I wanted it, he would sell me a 16 or 20 something SEER unit with bells and whistles that would make the local symphony green with envy. But, I would be wasting my money. I listened to this guy and thought he was a nut. Plus, he sold the dreaded “Good Man” and “Am Ana” lines.

    The next day I contacted a “reputable” dealer and their sales person came out and without me saying a word – or him even coming inside the house to look in the attic - said I needed a 20 something SEER unit, high end blower, new this, new that, etc. (I am thinking he is on to something here…some type of telepathic skill at knowing how to instantly perform complex cost/trade off analysis on all the various units and my home’s needs – a new nanotechnology embedded Ouija board perhaps?). (As an aside, the gentleman spent more time telling me about the great pads that they were using than about what I was really spending my money on – should I have seen this as a bit of a clue?) Well, I thought, wow, I knew this guy was good!! Little did I realize that if I listened to him, I would also need to double the diameter of all sewer lines in the house to accommodate the poop he was spewing.

    So, just to make sure this human methane plant and I were right, I did some more Googling. I happened to stumble across some interesting articles from some of the CA utility firms (more graphs yippy!). But, they seemed to sort of agree with the good Tech’s nutty manager. Their position was that SEER and EER are not effective metrics for the real world. Say what?!? Then, I found this forum. You said, look at EER in TX, not SEER. I went back to the manufacturer’s charts and graphs. Interesting…in a lot of comparisons, while the SEER numbers went up smartly, there was much less delta in EER. More money for nothing in the armpit of TX?

    Well, to make a very long story a tad shorter. I closed the deal today with the company that employees the nut who tries to tell idiot consumers like me that I am wasting my money! No, I did not get a two-stage heat pump (I won’t live long enough to get the payback). Yes, I did go to a 14 SEER unit (mainly because the 13 SEER still used R22). Yes, I did go with the variable speed blower for comfort, not efficiency gains. Yes, I do believe this nut’s Tech’s are well trained and so I stand a much better chance at achieving something closer to stated efficiencies. And thanks to you guys, I saved more than some pocket change not going with the 21 SEER unit with it’s marvelous pad that would have a payback in 2303! Oh yes, I did go with one of those crappy “Am Ana” units – what the hell! You only live once!

    THANK YOU!

    Footnote – Yes, it’s 3:15am but too hot to sleep tonight! Relief comes tomorrow morning!
    Wow, that was some post. If you haven't already, consider a career as a writer (comedy, perhaps).

    Good luck with the new equipment.

    AM

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Toledo, Ohio, United States
    Posts
    12,921
    Quote Originally Posted by Swampfox View Post
    I see you're in BNI also

    Twilli has been in his group for over 8 years. Great organization.
    No Heat No Cool You need Action Fast

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The Twilight Zone
    Posts
    2,964
    SETexan:

    That was a great post.

    A few words of advice from a fellow Goodman 14 SEER heat pump owner:

    - Make sure you get the optional TXV (thermostatic expansion valve) for the indoor coil. It does a better job at regulating refrigerant flow in cooling mode under all operating conditions than the check flow-rater expansion device supplied with the air handler. It's less than $100. All Goodman/Amana systems are ARI-rated for SEER/EER with a TXV, and not the flow-rater.

    - The 1" filter rack in the air handler is poorly designed. I literally have to tear out the old filter and surgically install a new filter. Get a separate 4" media filter cabinet to avoid my monthly aggravation.

    Best to you.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Fort Worth, TX
    Posts
    11,376
    Quote Originally Posted by ampulman View Post
    Wow, that was some post. If you haven't already, consider a career as a writer (comedy, perhaps).

    Good luck with the new equipment.

    AM
    I had similar thoughts...it was an entertaining read, and well written.

    Yet another story bolstering my belief regarding throwing high technology solutions at a low technology problem isn't necessarily the best path. The OP was ready to plunk down big money...any number of HVAC contractors would've been more than eager to take that cash and sell the highest end system in stock. Sounds like the one he went with just wants a satisfied customer vs. short term bottom line fattening. Gee...what a business concept.

    To the OP...the "armpit of Texas" possibly meaning the hot, muggy southeast quadrant of the state...you would be well served to not only insist on a clean installation of your new equipment, but to work on your house so it contributes much more to your comfort level than it may now be doing. Insulation, radiant barrier, sealing air leaks, etc. It's time to think of the entire house, along with the HVAC system, as a comfort team. Throwing higher SEER equipment yet ignoring the largest reason why high a/c demand is needed in the first place - a thermally inefficient building envelope - is not a wise strategy, IMO.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Just North of Dallas, Texas
    Posts
    97

    Another Happy Goodman Owner

    Quote Originally Posted by SETexan View Post
    First, I wish to give you all my thanks! I Googled into this forum last night and spent several hours going through many great posts – and some very funny ones as well. You all saved me a whole lot of money and gave me the knowledge to ask contractors the right questions.

    This all started with the need to replace the air handler on my 15 year old Carrier heat pump system that finally had a debilitating stroke – poorly maintained and annually pumped up on R22 steroids by a local quack while it was suffering some major arterial bleeding with no good doctor to look after it. I shudder to think what my ozone footprint has been over the last four years living in this house! When it failed last week, I was fortunate enough to have a real pro take a look at it. There was nary a trace of Freon left in my old friend. The evap coils were leaking so badly it drained the batteries in his sniffer within 30 seconds. With skill of a surgeon, the tech was able to open the heat pump enclosure without it falling to pieces given all the rust and corrosion my lonely sentinel of cool had acquired. Yet another set of batteries were required for the sniffer outside. My quest had begun and so I started to try to get a little smarter (though I had not yet found you folks!)

    Being an engineer by profession, I was getting randy with all the manufacturer’s data tables and graphs. Like so many, I was going fat, dumb and happy down the SEER stream without a paddle. The good tech’s manager listened quietly as I proudly rattled off “two stage scroll”, the higher the SEER the better, variable speed blower, yada yada, yada. He quietly listened to my dribble and when I was through told me he thought I was making a mistake. Sure, if I wanted it, he would sell me a 16 or 20 something SEER unit with bells and whistles that would make the local symphony green with envy. But, I would be wasting my money. I listened to this guy and thought he was a nut. Plus, he sold the dreaded “Good Man” and “Am Ana” lines.

    The next day I contacted a “reputable” dealer and their sales person came out and without me saying a word – or him even coming inside the house to look in the attic - said I needed a 20 something SEER unit, high end blower, new this, new that, etc. (I am thinking he is on to something here…some type of telepathic skill at knowing how to instantly perform complex cost/trade off analysis on all the various units and my home’s needs – a new nanotechnology embedded Ouija board perhaps?). (As an aside, the gentleman spent more time telling me about the great pads that they were using than about what I was really spending my money on – should I have seen this as a bit of a clue?) Well, I thought, wow, I knew this guy was good!! Little did I realize that if I listened to him, I would also need to double the diameter of all sewer lines in the house to accommodate the poop he was spewing.

    So, just to make sure this human methane plant and I were right, I did some more Googling. I happened to stumble across some interesting articles from some of the CA utility firms (more graphs yippy!). But, they seemed to sort of agree with the good Tech’s nutty manager. Their position was that SEER and EER are not effective metrics for the real world. Say what?!? Then, I found this forum. You said, look at EER in TX, not SEER. I went back to the manufacturer’s charts and graphs. Interesting…in a lot of comparisons, while the SEER numbers went up smartly, there was much less delta in EER. More money for nothing in the armpit of TX?

    Well, to make a very long story a tad shorter. I closed the deal today with the company that employees the nut who tries to tell idiot consumers like me that I am wasting my money! No, I did not get a two-stage heat pump (I won’t live long enough to get the payback). Yes, I did go to a 14 SEER unit (mainly because the 13 SEER still used R22). Yes, I did go with the variable speed blower for comfort, not efficiency gains. Yes, I do believe this nut’s Tech’s are well trained and so I stand a much better chance at achieving something closer to stated efficiencies. And thanks to you guys, I saved more than some pocket change not going with the 21 SEER unit with it’s marvelous pad that would have a payback in 2303! Oh yes, I did go with one of those crappy “Am Ana” units – what the hell! You only live once!

    THANK YOU!

    Footnote – Yes, it’s 3:15am but too hot to sleep tonight! Relief comes tomorrow morning!
    From a fellow Texan, I just purchased my second Goodman HVAC. I replaced an older unit that had been poorly installed. I was younger then and didn't have the knowledge imparted from the learned folks on this site. Even though the unit was poorly installed it still performed as best it could and didn't required a lot of costly repairs.

    I'm really enjoying the new one. The other day when it was nearly 100 outside it only took 1/2 hour to get the inside temp down from 80 to 75. Now I need to get some duct work done as my home was built by F&J and they did very little quality work throughout the home.

    Enjoy the Amana ...

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    274
    Quote Originally Posted by timby View Post
    From a fellow Texan, I just purchased my second Goodman HVAC. I replaced an older unit that had been poorly installed. I was younger then and didn't have the knowledge imparted from the learned folks on this site. Even though the unit was poorly installed it still performed as best it could and didn't required a lot of costly repairs.

    I'm really enjoying the new one. The other day when it was nearly 100 outside it only took 1/2 hour to get the inside temp down from 80 to 75. Now I need to get some duct work done as my home was built by F&J and they did very little quality work throughout the home.

    Enjoy the Amana ...
    F&J, Fox and Jacobs, didn't they belly up in the late 70's.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Just North of Dallas, Texas
    Posts
    97
    Quote Originally Posted by cep a/c View Post
    F&J, Fox and Jacobs, didn't they belly up in the late 70's.
    Yep ....

    However, they evolved into Centennial and then re-emerged as F&J. The add read " The same house your Father & Mother had built". Only problems is, I wouldn't want another home built as poorly as this one even if my mom & dad had one....

    They used 3/8 sheathing on the roof in a high wind, bad storm area. Just to name a few things.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Fort Worth, TX
    Posts
    11,376
    Quote Originally Posted by timby View Post
    Yep ....

    However, they evolved into Centennial and then re-emerged as F&J. The add read " The same house your Father & Mother had built". Only problems is, I wouldn't want another home built as poorly as this one even if my mom & dad had one....

    They used 3/8 sheathing on the roof in a high wind, bad storm area. Just to name a few things.
    My last house was a Fox & Jacobs Accent model, built 1968. Cheap construction even for that time. Wall studs set 24" on center (to save on material, likely), 3/8" roof decking, 2 x 4 roof trusses and ceiling joists, flakeboard sheathing, pine trim. Mine was a gabled ranch; constantly repairing transition piece between flat underside of eaves and gable ends, interior walls wavy, roof spongy when walked on, even where decking was new or in good shape. Creaked and popped a lot in high winds. I built a shop in the backyard with more stout construction techniques; told my wife if a tornado came I'd be out there under the table saw...shop would probably withstand the blast longer than the house.

    One thing F & J did do in that particular model that I liked was drop the ductwork below the ceiling by furring down the hallway ceiling and running duct board to all the rooms. The direct radiant heat gain to the ducts was reduced by there being sheetrock and insulation between the ducting and the attic...that is where that drywall wasn't punched through for piping, electrical, etc.

    I didn't know F & J went belly up at one point...just assumed Centex bought them. Maybe Centex was the old Centennial brand? I also remember Centex operating under that name only and fairly recently reviving the Fox & Jacobs name as a marketing angle. Why they thought as a viable marketing angle is beyond me...other than the houses being affordable for many, they are not fondly thought of, IMO. And this...

    " The same house your Father & Mother had built".

    ...is laughable! What F & J are building these days is nothing like what I owned. Still cheap construction, yes, but the design and layout are a lot different. Besides...I wouldn't want the same house my parents had built...I like the one an architect and builder built for someone else years ago that I now own just fine!

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Just North of Dallas, Texas
    Posts
    97
    Quote Originally Posted by shophound View Post
    My last house was a Fox & Jacobs Accent model, built 1968. Cheap construction even for that time. Wall studs set 24" on center (to save on material, likely), 3/8" roof decking, 2 x 4 roof trusses and ceiling joists, flakeboard sheathing, pine trim. Mine was a gabled ranch; constantly repairing transition piece between flat underside of eaves and gable ends, interior walls wavy, roof spongy when walked on, even where decking was new or in good shape. Creaked and popped a lot in high winds. I built a shop in the backyard with more stout construction techniques; told my wife if a tornado came I'd be out there under the table saw...shop would probably withstand the blast longer than the house.

    One thing F & J did do in that particular model that I liked was drop the ductwork below the ceiling by furring down the hallway ceiling and running duct board to all the rooms. The direct radiant heat gain to the ducts was reduced by there being sheetrock and insulation between the ducting and the attic...that is where that drywall wasn't punched through for piping, electrical, etc.

    I didn't know F & J went belly up at one point...just assumed Centex bought them. Maybe Centex was the old Centennial brand? I also remember Centex operating under that name only and fairly recently reviving the Fox & Jacobs name as a marketing angle. Why they thought as a viable marketing angle is beyond me...other than the houses being affordable for many, they are not fondly thought of, IMO. And this...

    " The same house your Father & Mother had built".

    ...is laughable! What F & J are building these days is nothing like what I owned. Still cheap construction, yes, but the design and layout are a lot different. Besides...I wouldn't want the same house my parents had built...I like the one an architect and builder built for someone else years ago that I now own just fine!
    What about the operating panel of the sliding glass door installed on the outside. That was a F&J hallmark.

    While the fur down was a good idea they didn't manager to get the air to flow through the ducts properly and I'm going to have to have someone come out and run new duct. I have some damage in the ducts and the cost to tear down the Sheetrock and do the repairs, then replace Sheetrock is very cost prohibited.

    I could write a novel on the bad building practices of F&J.

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