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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Madison, WI/Cape Coral, FL
    Posts
    6,368
    Good going on at least getting the dehumidifier quotes included. I work for thermastor.com and prefer the ULtra-Aire of course and its more efficient. But ok. With the dehumidifier included you will have good humidity control even with the five ton unit. Keep us posted on how this all works out. Regards TB
    Bear Rules: Keep our home <50% RH summer, controls mites/mold and very comfortable.
    Provide 60-100 cfm of fresh air when occupied to purge indoor pollutants and keep window dry during cold weather. T-stat setup/setback +8 hrs. saves energy
    Use +Merv 10 air filter. -Don't forget the "Golden Rule"

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    67,913
    The YTH9412.
    It has a better control of second stage. It can slow down the VS blower, both during cool to dehumidify, and regular cooling calls.
    And it can control a dehumidifier. If you add the Thermostor.
    Contractor locator map

    How-to-apply-for-Professional

    How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    7,680
    You live in Hotlanta... You apparently have done some homework and adecided to go high efficiency. Good for you.
    Before you go jumping off any cliffs, you should ask yourself, are you interested in Hot weather afficiency (95) or mild weather efficiency (66&#37; of which is calculated at 77 degrees and below) Seer is the latter, its a "be fair to everyone in the US" calculation but in reality it's no fair to most.

    EER is your hot weather efficiency. Surely you got some product data or an AHRI certificate of performance to look at. Take a close look at those EER's. I'll try to post some in a minute. HSPF is going to be your winter efficiency.

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    7,680
    Im not sure how this will come out on here but i'll paste it and see...

    Below is your two blue systems...
    In order its the AHRI reference number, the family, the OD unit, Indoor unit, the cooling capacity, the EER, the SEER, the Heating capacity at 47, the HSPF and the Heating capacity at 17.

    Look at the differences in EER performace and SEER between the higher priced "19" (whatever that means) and the "16". Oh the heating efficiency is the same.

    1250419 / INFINITY 16 HP / 25HNA648A30 / FE4ANB006+UI / 48000 / 11.80 / 16.30 / 47500 / 9.30 / 27800
    1158713 / INFINITY 19 HP / 25HNA948A30 / FE4ANB006+UI / 46500 / 12.60 / 16.80 / 48000 / 9.30 / 26800

    Once you get the complet AMANA numbers, go get the data from AHRI. You cant look it up without numbers. Maybe plug some others in too. Better yet ask your installers for the AHRI certficate.
    Last edited by docholiday; 05-10-2008 at 09:47 AM.

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Madison, WI/Cape Coral, FL
    Posts
    6,368
    Quote Originally Posted by optomos View Post
    I
    The house is around 3500 sf and the downstairs gets very musty, like the laundry and the bathroom, where mold is a problem. The current heat pump runs all the time so its not oversized for the house.
    .jpg"]http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b295/optomos/000_0560.jpg[/URL]
    After re-reading your original post, I see 3,500 sqft. plus basement/garage under the home. Because of the previous mold/moisture concerns, I suggest 150 pint per day dehumidifier to maintain <50%RH throughout the structure. If there is any crawlspace, cover the earth with plastic, close the vents and keep <50%RH in the space. A small dry air supply to these spaces from the dehumidifier will be adequate.
    The Ultra-Aire 150H is the highest eff. dehu available. It fits well with a large modern a/c. A slightly oversized a/c works well with a whole house dehumidifier. Large older homes usually have no need for additional fresh air ventilation. Maintain 50%RH throughout your home makes it comfortable, odor, and mold free. Regards TB
    Bear Rules: Keep our home <50% RH summer, controls mites/mold and very comfortable.
    Provide 60-100 cfm of fresh air when occupied to purge indoor pollutants and keep window dry during cold weather. T-stat setup/setback +8 hrs. saves energy
    Use +Merv 10 air filter. -Don't forget the "Golden Rule"

  6. #19
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    22
    Great advice guys. The Ultra-Aire 150 is more efficient, but not the other model. I have sent an email to the installer to modify his proposal and give an estimate on the ultra-aire 150 and the honeywell YTH9412.

    I should have the new proposal by Monday and then I will get the data from AHRI unless the installer sends it to me.

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
    Posts
    6,273

    Hmm What is the new calculated load ?

    Quote Originally Posted by optomos View Post

    I totally agree yet no one here does a manual j and
    seems to go by a rule of thumb.

    I am though more inclined to believe that the installers who recommended a 4 ton unit over a 5 ton are correct.

    With all the home improvements done (new windows, entry doors, garage doors, and extra insulation in attic) the 19 year old heat pump did a good job after the updates.

    I have pretty much decided to go with the Amana installer and am waiting for him to rewrite the proposal for a 4 ton unit.

    With this setup:
    Amana ASZ16 or ASZ18 4 ton
    MBE2000 variable speed air handler
    Aprilaire 2200
    Aprilaire 1700

    Any other suggestions or comments?
    HOW does inclined work, is that better than KNOWing?

    It's All about Windows ...
    Calculate the loads
    Know your equipment

    As previously stated by beenthere:

    " ... As far as your current 5 ton struggling to handle the load, that could be duct issues. The duct system should be checked before changing out the system. That can be done by checking the existing units static pressure. "

    Manual J heating and cooling loads are :
    Summer XX,XXX BTUh
    Winter XX,XXX BTUh

    What additional load is created by adding the dehumidifier?

    What are the partial and full sensible load and latent load capacities of the recommended equipment?
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  8. #21
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Naples, Fl
    Posts
    889
    optomos

    Dan and the others are trying to help you. How was the capacity determined? This is a significant investment on multiple fronts; get at least a block (wholehouse) heatload done. Even if you had to pay someone like Dan to do it then there will be a better degree of certainty.

    "If you don't measure thenyou are just guessing" D.G. from NCI

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Madison, WI/Cape Coral, FL
    Posts
    6,368
    Quote Originally Posted by dan sw fl View Post
    HOW does inclined work,
    is that better
    What additional load is created by adding the dehumidifier?

    What are the partial and full sensible load and latent load capacities of the recommended equipment?
    When a dehumidifier operates, latent btus (moisture)are removed. The water exits the house. The btus are returned as sensible heat to the home.
    Most importantly, dehumidifiers do not operate unless the moisture was not removed by the a/c. During high cooling load conditions, a properly set-up a/c will maintain <50%RH. During wet weather, the sensible cooling load declines, the a/c's ability to maintain <50%RH declines. The dehumdifier supplements the moisture removal only when the %RH rises above the desired level. The dehumidifier delivers 1,050 btus per lb. of moisture removed plus 3,414 per kw used. The warmth is a form of reheat. The increased cooling load also helps remove the excess moisture in the home. During cool wet weather, cooling decreases to the point where there is no cooling load only a moisture load. Dehumidifying during cool wet weather, the added heat aids in the drying process.

    Therefore do not add cooling capacity because of the use of a dehumdifier. The Ultra-Aire brand dehumidifier has the contol ability to not operate when the a/c is operating.

    Regarding cooling equipments sensible/latent ratio, few designers consider that in green grass climates, the overnight latent loads remain high while the sensible cooling declines to nothing. Adding the typical "couple rainy days", several lbs. of moisture/hr., interior latent load from occupants, and minimal ventilation/infilteration moisture explains high indoor latent loads. Manual "J" has a provision for calculating the latent loads from the above sources. Set the cooling load temperature at the typical overnight temperature. Set the infiltration at the minimal recommended ASHRAE ventilation rate of 7 cfm/occupant+.01 cfm per 100 sqft. of home. The latent load exceeds the sensible load. This is the effect of couple rainy days. This is the condition that requires supplemental dehumidification. I appreciate your contribution and participation. Regards TB
    Bear Rules: Keep our home <50% RH summer, controls mites/mold and very comfortable.
    Provide 60-100 cfm of fresh air when occupied to purge indoor pollutants and keep window dry during cold weather. T-stat setup/setback +8 hrs. saves energy
    Use +Merv 10 air filter. -Don't forget the "Golden Rule"

  10. #23
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    22
    Quote Originally Posted by dan sw fl View Post
    HOW does inclined work, is that better than KNOWing?
    Of course not, but that does not change the fact that most companies don't do manual j's. Actually, out of the 7 companies that I had come out, not 1 did a manual J and more than half (75&#37 were only her about 20 minutes, even companies that had over 90% NATE certified techs, excellent BBB records and so on. You are always welcome to come to my house, do a manual j and sell me a unit.

    As far as the unit goes, I found out it was actually a 4 ton HP with a 5 ton air handler. I am also getting the ductwork sealed.

  11. #24
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    22
    The proposal came in. Here are the AHRI specs on each unit:

    16SEER


    18SEER



    As far as the price difference between the two, it would take two years more of energy savings on the Amana 18 SEER to match the price of the 16 SEER.

    There was no price difference between the Honeywell yth9421 and the th8321, but the Ultra-Aire XT150H costs a third more than the Aprilaire 1700.

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Madison, WI/Cape Coral, FL
    Posts
    6,368
    Consider that the Ultr-Aire 150H removes 150 pints of moisture per day and uses 7 amps of electricity. This is 50% more moisture while using less electricity. With all of the space and an older leaky home, the extra capacity will be needed. The savings for a year will be substancial. The UA is the state of art regarding dehumidifier design. I am impressed with the effort you put into this project. Regards TB
    Bear Rules: Keep our home <50% RH summer, controls mites/mold and very comfortable.
    Provide 60-100 cfm of fresh air when occupied to purge indoor pollutants and keep window dry during cold weather. T-stat setup/setback +8 hrs. saves energy
    Use +Merv 10 air filter. -Don't forget the "Golden Rule"

  13. #26
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    22
    Tnx Bear. Ok, here is the final proposal from the company I choose to install the HP.


    Thank you for choosing us to replace the heat pump system for your home. We will furnish and install:
    1. Amana #ASZ16048 four ton heat pump and #CAPF4860 coil and #MBE2000 variable speed air handler with 15 kw electric heater (system efficiency 16.0; 9.75 HSPF). This uses the environmentally friendly R410A refrigerant.
    2. Remove and haul away existing equipment. Set new equipment in place and reconnect ductwork, electrical, control wiring, and condensate drain piping. New refrigerant piping will be installed. The air handler will be set in an emergency drain pan with safety float switch.
    3. We will also install a Honeywell YTH9421C1002 Vision Pro IAQ thermostat.
    This includes the TH9421C1004 thermostat and the THM5421C1008 equipment interface module.
    4. Option (1) Aprilaire 2200 Media Air Cleaner.

    5. Option (2) Ultra-Aire XT150H central dehumidifier. We will also install a 6 outside air intake with a manual shut off damper.

    Amana provides a TEN YEAR PARTS & LABOR warranty. We guarantee all workmanship and material for one year.

    Please call with any questions or to schedule the work.
    The ductwork company will come out on Thursday to clean and seal the ducts and the HVAC company wants to come out the same day to take some more measurements and for the main tech that will be doing the work to look over the job site. Then on Friday they will begin the HVAC install probably until Saturday. I will take some more before picks and post the after picks on here.

    I have a lot of work to do to move stuff in the garage and in the house so that the duct comapny can get to all the supply and return registers.

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