Heat pump advice for the south

[adrianf]

optomos

Dan and the others are trying to help you. How was the capacity determined? This is a significant investment on multiple fronts; get at least a block (wholehouse) heatload done. Even if you had to pay someone like Dan to do it then there will be a better degree of certainty.

"If you don't measure thenyou are just guessing" D.G. from NCI

[teddy bear]

HOW does inclined work,
is that better
What additional load is created by adding the dehumidifier?

What are the partial and full sensible load and latent load capacities of the recommended equipment?

When a dehumidifier operates, latent btus (moisture)are removed. The water exits the house. The btus are returned as sensible heat to the home.
Most importantly, dehumidifiers do not operate unless the moisture was not removed by the a/c. During high cooling load conditions, a properly set-up a/c will maintain <50%RH. During wet weather, the sensible cooling load declines, the a/c's ability to maintain <50%RH declines. The dehumdifier supplements the moisture removal only when the %RH rises above the desired level. The dehumidifier delivers 1,050 btus per lb. of moisture removed plus 3,414 per kw used. The warmth is a form of reheat. The increased cooling load also helps remove the excess moisture in the home. During cool wet weather, cooling decreases to the point where there is no cooling load only a moisture load. Dehumidifying during cool wet weather, the added heat aids in the drying process.

Therefore do not add cooling capacity because of the use of a dehumdifier. The Ultra-Aire brand dehumidifier has the contol ability to not operate when the a/c is operating.

Regarding cooling equipments sensible/latent ratio, few designers consider that in green grass climates, the overnight latent loads remain high while the sensible cooling declines to nothing. Adding the typical "couple rainy days", several lbs. of moisture/hr., interior latent load from occupants, and minimal ventilation/infilteration moisture explains high indoor latent loads. Manual "J" has a provision for calculating the latent loads from the above sources. Set the cooling load temperature at the typical overnight temperature. Set the infiltration at the minimal recommended ASHRAE ventilation rate of 7 cfm/occupant+.01 cfm per 100 sqft. of home. The latent load exceeds the sensible load. This is the effect of couple rainy days. This is the condition that requires supplemental dehumidification. I appreciate your contribution and participation. Regards TB

[optomos]

HOW does inclined work, is that better than KNOWing?

Of course not, but that does not change the fact that most companies don't do manual j's. Actually, out of the 7 companies that I had come out, not 1 did a manual J and more than half (75&#37 were only her about 20 minutes, even companies that had over 90% NATE certified techs, excellent BBB records and so on. You are always welcome to come to my house, do a manual j and sell me a unit.

As far as the unit goes, I found out it was actually a 4 ton HP with a 5 ton air handler. I am also getting the ductwork sealed.

[optomos]

The proposal came in. Here are the AHRI specs on each unit:

16SEER


18SEER



As far as the price difference between the two, it would take two years more of energy savings on the Amana 18 SEER to match the price of the 16 SEER.

There was no price difference between the Honeywell yth9421 and the th8321, but the Ultra-Aire XT150H costs a third more than the Aprilaire 1700.

[teddy bear]

Consider that the Ultr-Aire 150H removes 150 pints of moisture per day and uses 7 amps of electricity. This is 50% more moisture while using less electricity. With all of the space and an older leaky home, the extra capacity will be needed. The savings for a year will be substancial. The UA is the state of art regarding dehumidifier design. I am impressed with the effort you put into this project. Regards TB

[optomos]

Tnx Bear. Ok, here is the final proposal from the company I choose to install the HP.

Thank you for choosing us to replace the heat pump system for your home. We will furnish and install:
1. Amana #ASZ16048 four ton heat pump and #CAPF4860 coil and #MBE2000 variable speed air handler with 15 kw electric heater (system efficiency 16.0; 9.75 HSPF). This uses the environmentally friendly R410A refrigerant.
2. Remove and haul away existing equipment. Set new equipment in place and reconnect ductwork, electrical, control wiring, and condensate drain piping. New refrigerant piping will be installed. The air handler will be set in an emergency drain pan with safety float switch.
3. We will also install a Honeywell YTH9421C1002 Vision Pro IAQ thermostat.
This includes the TH9421C1004 thermostat and the THM5421C1008 equipment interface module.
4. Option (1) Aprilaire 2200 Media Air Cleaner.

5. Option (2) Ultra-Aire XT150H central dehumidifier. We will also install a 6” outside air intake with a manual shut off damper.

Amana provides a TEN YEAR PARTS & LABOR warranty. We guarantee all workmanship and material for one year.

Please call with any questions or to schedule the work.

The ductwork company will come out on Thursday to clean and seal the ducts and the HVAC company wants to come out the same day to take some more measurements and for the main tech that will be doing the work to look over the job site. Then on Friday they will begin the HVAC install probably until Saturday. I will take some more before picks and post the after picks on here.

I have a lot of work to do to move stuff in the garage and in the house so that the duct comapny can get to all the supply and return registers.

[RyanHughes]

It sounds like you've chosen a good system and you're happy about it. Look forward to seeing some pics if you decide to take them.

[optomos]

Ok, here is some pictures of what has been completed. They were here Friday and Saturday and are still not finished, but thats what happens when you come at 9:30, go to lunch at 11:00 and leave at 3:30. Someone, or as the installers called him "someone who went to school" is comming out Tuesday to finish installing the dehumidifier and IAQ thermostat.

The guys did not really want to work because of Memorial day, but they were afraid of the master tech/boss so they did not dare not show up (don't people know voices carry through ductwork?). They were one of the messiest bunch like leaving drywall matter all over the washer/dryer, but that is typical here in GA. I am glad the laundry room is being redone.
Before:

After: Ignore the wiring; thats something i'm working on.


So here are some issue:

1. They did not bring a condensate pump or pvc with them and they were going to reuse the old pump. I said NO WAY so they went to Lowe's and picked up a Water Ace RCU20S and reused the old clear tubing from the old pump that I put in my trash can! That new pump is so noisy; it sound like a bearing grinding when it comes on and can be heard all the way upstairs. Is this normal sound for one of those pumps?


2. Every time the VS blower comes on or turns off it makes a "thump" or two sound. Also today when the VS blower turns it sound like that sound you hear from your car brakes when the metal clip on the pads are touching the rotors.

3. They used a lot of mastic, but there is still some leakage, but that should be easy to remedy. One location I am not sure about though is around the two breaker locations:

I can feel a lot of suction when I put my hand over them. Is this normal?

4. They were going to run the tubing across the ceiling again when I noticed it tied up. When I asked them about it they said they could not bend the tubing to get it above the ceiling. I had made it clear that they could cut the drywall so the tubing can go above it. So in the end they ran it above, but made more damage to the drywall than necessary and it was still not fully pushed into the wall vertically so that new drywall could be palced over it.




Now to whoever told me to go with the Ultra-Aire needs to be slapped over their with it, but first I need to find 10 very strong people who can pick it up first This thing is a monster!! The pictures of it on their website are not to scale. They should put a warning that "object is much bigger than it appears".

This is where it will have to hang:


Here is where they made the fresh air hole:


On a lighter note, the Aeroseal duct sealing work was great! They reduce leakage by 65&#37;. They caulked all the return and supply ducts where they meat the wall and floor, placed HVAC tape or metal over any large problem spots, then used that white stuff to seal the ducts internally. I also replaced some of the ducts in the garage. The major problem areas were the 90&#176; elbows and I replaced 5 of them and taped up 2.

[optomos]

2nd Post with more pictures







Here are some other pictures of the install:

[sammy37]

Thats one of the crappiest installs I think I've seen on here yet. Looks like you've got some real winners doing that one, I hope the thing ends up working out o.k. for you. I would be very upset if someone did that kind of work in my house! How many buckets of mastic did they use?

[sammy37]

I'm really surprised no one else has added their criticism to these pics. Usually when somone posts some raunchy install photos the whole place goes nuts!

[RyanHughes]

Maybe they're speechless.

It's easy to sit back here and criticize optomos's installation, but we have to put ourselves in his position as well. He picked a proposal that he and many others (myself included) thought was a good system installation by a competent company. From his description of the process and images, I would say that the installation looks rather sloppy. Optomos, I suggest getting in contact with the sales person you talked with and asking him to come review the work done (and maybe even a manager, too). Ask him (them) if this is what they consider quality work--mastic spewed all over the place, sloppy lineset, etc... The installation certainly isn't the best I've seen, but I was unimpressed when I first saw the pictures and think some improvements can be made. Good luck.

[optomos]

The owner and sales person are coming out tomorrow plus the person that is suppose to finish wiring the ultra-aire and Honeywell IAQ. He had problems on Monday getting the IAQ to work with the dehumidifier. One of the guys had set up the Ultra-Aire to pull from the return and send back to the return so that the dehumidified air goes over the coil and set the blower to run at a low speed. I was like umm, why? Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of the whole house dehumidifier? So I hope some of this will be resolved with the owner tomorrow.

Other than that, the VS blower is great after they adjusted the turbine because it was rubbing against the housing. The CFM it puts out is unbelievable and so is the suction. The rooms where there was very little air flow or inconsistent temperature is now consistent with the rest of the house. The garage is warmer then it was before, when the leaky ducts were keeping it cooler then upstairs The outside unit is also very quite.

The owner said that he will make sure I am very satisfied with the job; I certainly hope so.

If any of you see something wrong please let me know so I can point it out to the owner.

Here are some more pictures of the Ultra-Aire installed:

[sammy37]

The owner and sales person are coming out tomorrow plus the person that is suppose to finish wiring the ultra-aire and Honeywell IAQ. He had problems on Monday getting the IAQ to work with the dehumidifier. One of the guys had set up the Ultra-Aire to pull from the return and send back to the return so that the dehumidified air goes over the coil and set the blower to run at a low speed. I was like umm, why? Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of the whole house dehumidifier? So I hope some of this will be resolved with the owner tomorrow.

Other than that, the VS blower is great after they adjusted the turbine because it was rubbing against the housing. The CFM it puts out is unbelievable and so is the suction. The rooms where there was very little air flow or inconsistent temperature is now consistent with the rest of the house. The garage is warmer then it was before, when the leaky ducts were keeping it cooler then upstairs The outside unit is also very quite.

The owner said that he will make sure I am very satisfied with the job; I certainly hope so.

If any of you see something wrong please let me know so I can point it out to the owner.

Here are some more pictures of the Ultra-Aire installed:

Everything I have seen looks wrong, the ductwork is sloppy, the air handler install is sloppy, the mastic looks like you handed my three year old a paint brush and said here have at it! The fact that they left the mess all over the washer and dryer, plus the fact they were going to reuse the old condensate pump, and whatever else, jsut proves that are a bunch of hacks. I wouldnt let anyone install that mess in my house even if it was free. Sorry to be so harsh, but this industry shouldnt have people doing work like this!

[optomos]

The owner and the senior tech came out today. They replaced the noisy Condensate pump with a Diversitech CP-22, put in a new hose running from it, put in the p-trap, sealed some more around the airhandler, finished connecting the Ultra-Aire to the IAQ, reran the wiring so that it looks cleaner, and some other misc things. In 2 weeks they will come back once the mastic is fully dried and paint it so that it matches the airhandler.

I have it set at 74 with RH@40-45&#37;. I can't believe how crisp and easy the air is to breath and at 74 I am freezing my tushh off! Even though that Ultra-Aire dehumidifier is a MONSTER, I do have to thank whoever recommended it to me

Thank you all who have contributed. I will post some more picks when the laundry room drywall is repaired and painted. It will look much better then.

[beenthere]

Wait till its 72* outside, and 72&#37; RH outside, and you don't have to set your stat to 70, you'll thank him again.

[teddy bear]

The ow
I have it set at 74 with RH@40-45%. I can't believe how crisp and easy the air is to breath and at 74 I am freezing my tushh off! Even though that Ultra-Aire dehumidifier is a MONSTER, I do have to thank whoever recommended it to me

Thank you all who have contributed. I will post some more picks when the laundry room drywall is repaired and painted. It will look much better then.

Like others have stated, the installation is not totally to my liking. I like your discription about the crisp feeling you are discribing. I am glad I held off on countering the comments about the looks of one of my children- Ultra-Aire xt150h. It is like marrying the plain woman who has no equal. After the 1st week, preformance is everything.
Set the t-stat up to max that you are comfortable. Warmer temperature decreases the a/c and dehumidification energy and increases the life of the equipment. Another energy saving opportunity is using the t-stats to set-up the temperature when the home is not occupied for extended times. We typically expect to be able to maintain <50%RH. Do not change the dehu set point while setting the temperature up. This is like a shakedown cruise. Are you operating fans continuously? What about fresh air? Keep us posted on likes/dislikes. Thanks again for trying a monster product. We do have small units but not better. Regards TB

[dan sw fl]

Like others have stated, the installation is not totally to my liking.
I like your description about the crisp feeling you are describing.

I am glad I held off on countering the comments about the looks of one of my children- Ultra-Aire xt150h. It is like marrying the plain woman who has no equal. After the 1st week, preformance is everything.

Do not change the dehu set point while setting the temperature up.
This is (like) a shakedown cruise.

UA model XT 150H IS Relatively SMALL.
Perceptions of size are all relative.

Medium to Large, in AHU sizing for some applications, is the larger than a house.
MONSTER, in AHU sizing, is larger than several houses.

[dan sw fl]

I have it set at 74 with RH@40-45%. I can't believe how crisp and easy the air is to breath and at 74 I am freezing my tushh off!

Many Southerners actually have to wear sweaters when it is 74'F at 40% R.H.
Trial setting: 78' to 80'F at 44%
Of perhaps, as many prefer a couple degrees less for sleeping.


Do you wish to breathe even easier, try a portable filter unit
good for up to 450 sq feet

Models 525, 546, 547 ...
.. maybe available at Lowe's or similar store
http://www.hunterfan.com/pages/cat_a...php?roomSize=1

[optomos]

Ok, I have had it set at 78' with 40% and 45% RH. This is what I have seen:

1. IAQ set at 45% stays at 50%
2. IAQ set at 40% stays at 41%
3. No steam on bathroom mirror when taking hot shower and AC running
4. I can shave in the shower and see my face clearly in the portable mirror. That has never happened before.
5. Air quality and comfort have been great

The owner came out a couple of days ago to paint the mastic. It looks a lot better, so much better that I plan on painting the return and supply in the laundry room. The laundry is still a work in progress, but it looks so much better compared to before. Here are some Pics:

http://img45.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0000590ek5.jpg
http://img294.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0000591se8.jpg
http://img45.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0000592ax2.jpg
http://img162.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0000593qa2.jpg
http://img294.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0000594cu5.jpg