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  1. #27
    Ok, here are the average annual costs:

    $1.53/th (incl distribution and transportation)
    $.09/kwh

    Last yr utility bill was $3,000.

    The furnace will be installed on a finish basement. 3/4 of the ceiling have drop tiles that can be removed to work and it will be a run of approx 100'. Which does not strike me as impossible or too expensive.

    Another thing that stroke me odd was that one of the contractors mentioned that my ductwork was design for 5 1/2 tons and I have a 3 1/2 ton AC unit. I also have one duct line servicing two floors.

  2. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    68,033
    He probaly used .1 FR and to determine how much air your ductwork will move. If thats what he did, well, he's not correct.

    A duel fuel will save you money on your heating bill With the rates you posted.
    At a COP of 1.6 and above, a HP cost less to operate.
    Contractor locator map

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    How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?

  3. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    190
    You can't beat this system it will give you the best of both worlds for efficiency and performance

  4. #30
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Hastings, MN
    Posts
    417
    Quote Originally Posted by gary_g View Post
    4.3 cents per kw-hr is dirt cheap. Does that include transmission and distribution charges, or is it just generation?
    Here in Minnesota it is for off peak or interruptible, your right it is dirt cheap. That is with delivery. With out the off peak controls it is $.075 kwh with delivery.
    Aint Notin Sweeter, Then A Brand New Heater!!!!!!!!!!

  5. #31
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Baltimore MD and Ridgebury PA
    Posts
    542
    Quote Originally Posted by tomgeer View Post
    ok, All that to say --- 90% is more money up front and pay back is longer. 80% is less money up front and payback is sooner. In my area, $1,100 for a HP upgrade with new system. This WILL be seen in energy savings over 2 - 2.5 years causing early upgrade payback. Now look at your total system pay back. How many people can say today " TOTAL system payback in the life of the system? Most Co. want you to add what you will pay for repare, fig. out your enegy usage and cost. add all together. now do same with the new furnace and subtract the two. this determans your system payback. ( what ever the thoughts are, have a long or short "J" done. Compare three aples for aples bids, check rep of Co. and pick WHO YOU WANT IN YOUR HOME>
    "all that to say --- 90% is more money up front and pay back is longer. 80% is less money up front and payback is sooner."
    Yes, because if you just state it the way you did then people argue with you about it. If you clarify your reasoning then people usually don't complain. You seem to be the exception. Also, there may not be a ROI of the incremental cost of utilizing a 90%+ instead of an 80% efficient furnace. It depends on the energy rates coupled with the estimated annual run time of the furnace. The less often the furnace is run rather than the heatpump then the more likely there will be no ROI of the incremental cost of upgrading.

    Regarding the second part of your statement... despite its verbosity I'm not even sure I followed whether you were simply talking about the advantages of going with a heatpump rather than a straight AC or whether you were talking about the 80 vs 90 again.

  6. #32
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    The South
    Posts
    2,190
    Quote Originally Posted by HomeowneNOVA View Post
    Ok, here are the average annual costs:

    $1.53/th (incl distribution and transportation)
    $.09/kwh

    Last yr utility bill was $3,000.

    The furnace will be installed on a finish basement. 3/4 of the ceiling have drop tiles that can be removed to work and it will be a run of approx 100'. Which does not strike me as impossible or too expensive.

    Another thing that stroke me odd was that one of the contractors mentioned that my ductwork was design for 5 1/2 tons and I have a 3 1/2 ton AC unit. I also have one duct line servicing two floors.
    NOVA

    I took the liberty of running some fuel comparison numbers for you.

    Based on your electric and nat gas costs using a 2.70 COP for the HP and 80% eff for gas furnace.

    Cost per 100,000 btu of useable heat

    Electric baseboard: $2.37
    Heat pump: $0.98
    Natural gas: $1.86

    2.70 COP vs 93% eff gas furnace

    Cost per 100,000 btu of useable heat

    Electric baseboard: $2.37
    Heat pump: $0.98
    Natural gas: $1.60

    of course this is a guide but you can see that as long as a high eff HP is able to maintain your inside comfort, your savings can be pretty impressive.

    You may want to consider zoning controls for two zones off one system.

    IMO


    Fuel Comparison calculator
    http://www.warmair.com/html/fuel_cost_comparisons.htm

  7. #33
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    68,033
    Now figure out, if he's better off with a duel fuel, or a HP with electric aux heat.
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    How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?

  8. #34
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    PA/DE area
    Posts
    1,535
    How about oil heat?
    It's NOT the BRAND,it's the company that installs it!!!!!

  9. #35
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    68,033
    Quote Originally Posted by heatpumpguru View Post
    How about oil heat?
    What about it.

    My oil furnace heats my place real well.
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  10. #36
    I wish I could use zones. Unfortunately, the builder went with a munimal approach to construction and one trunk line services the first and second floors. As I understand it, the only way I can zone is adding another unit.

    Today I think I found a winner, Bryant Evolution system with a 80% furnace and a HP. Any comments on Bryant systems.

    Also, now I understand better why nobody wants to push for a 90% furnace, it is the cost of installation. My basement is finsihed and I will need to spent more fixing the drywall and other issues resulting from the new exhaust installation and at a $2500-3000 cost differential it does not seem worth the trouble. Any comments?

  11. #37
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    68,033
    As good as any.

    Your house could still be zoned. But it wouldn't be cheap. Basically a no payback investment in your house.
    Contractor locator map

    How-to-apply-for-Professional

    How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?

  12. #38
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Fayetteville,Arkansas
    Posts
    1,427
    Quote Originally Posted by acmanhoney View Post
    I work NOVA and sell infinity, my customers love it with superior humidity controll
    and i still get amazed at how quiet it is, infinty controll is very nice. i would do 96% in my house with 19 seer heat pump, carrier is also kickin out a $1100 rebait, 4-6 weeks, we sell trane and carrier. go with a good company that can size install and maintain your COMFORT system to max out efficiency and your comfort. choose by comfort,efficiency then price


    ps hybrid works great in metro area with our high humidty, hot summer, sometimes freezing winters. people say they love it
    check out hvacopcost.com

    Alexandria VA


    Concerning the rebate. You can get the $1100.00 rebate if you get the
    dual fuel system utilizing an 80% cva furnace and the 25HNA6 heat pump.
    You don't have to buy the 90% furnace with the 19 seer 25HNA9.
    So which ever efficiency you pick you will have to get the Infinity control to go with it.
    If you register the rebate online you can have it direct deposited into your account usually
    within 48 hours after the transaction has been completed. The 4 to 6 weeks is by mail.
    If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice.

  13. #39
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Rochelle Il / Chicago
    Posts
    169
    Quote Originally Posted by platchford View Post
    "all that to say --- 90% is more money up front and pay back is longer. 80% is less money up front and payback is sooner."
    Yes, because if you just state it the way you did then people argue with you about it. If you clarify your reasoning then people usually don't complain. You seem to be the exception. Also, there may not be a ROI of the incremental cost of utilizing a 90%+ instead of an 80% efficient furnace. It depends on the energy rates coupled with the estimated annual run time of the furnace. The less often the furnace is run rather than the heatpump then the more likely there will be no ROI of the incremental cost of upgrading.

    Regarding the second part of your statement... despite its verbosity I'm not even sure I followed whether you were simply talking about the advantages of going with a heatpump rather than a straight AC or whether you were talking about the 80 vs 90 again.
    Not really sure how to take this response. Seems to me your trying to couple your inability to communicate with your customers with your overpowering demeanor in the industry. I keep things simple for my cust. They like that. When I come across a cust. like you then I explain things as needed. All of us here can agree that it easy to overwhelm a cust. But my closing % shows my ability to communicate with my cust. So yes, I'm the exception in your book. Dig it? . I will say this, I'm impressed with your ability to run numbers. Now that's keeping things simple.

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