Open systems!!!!!!!

[Ausccn]

As much as systems are ment to be open, what does that really mean??? If you have Tridium (Honeywell, Johnsons, R2, AX, BACnet, LON etc etc) does it mean that the building is going to run any better?? There is still proprietary software behind every system. All of the open systems only bring everything into one common front end.

Each manufacturer has their own algorithms that set them apart from the others so what is open about that???.

If systems were that open, then everybody would be able to manipulate everyone else's system and that aint going to happen!!!

Once the system has had one contractor try and work it out, then along comes another that says they know how it should work and changes it even again.

The next thing is the poor building owner doesn't know who to go with and rips the system out and starts again.

What is open all about???????

[sysint]

Don't all those things happen in proprietary systems?

"If systems were that open, then everybody would be able to manipulate everyone else's system and that aint going to happen!!!"--- The costs also go down as competition increases. That way your VAV controller pricing stays low. And they do offer many standard features that are available. I can buy a computer and "manipulate" that system. In fact I EXPECT to be able to manipulate it. Controls isn't much different a concept. Anyway, it is happening. If I can buy a Distech programmable and open the programming in another software (I can) that's open.

You can have problems with any SYSTEM. The very important difference is will that future changing of components be SYSTEM level or DEVICE level. To give yourself the best opportunity at DEVICE level options, that's Lonworks and it's not bacnet. And, that's more by manufacturer choice. It just so happens that ASHRAE promotes the business model to stifle competition after an install to ensure their cronies can be around tommorrow and set pricing. They just have to beat themselves up on initial installation. After that it's gravy time.

[yroy]

As much as systems are ment to be open, what does that really mean??? There is still proprietary software behind every system. What is open all about???????

Open is not the opposite of Proprietary.
Open is the opposite of Closed.

"Public Domain" is the opposite of Proprietary.

It is tempting to associate Open with Public because Closed is normally always associated with Proprietary. That is the most common misconception of the industry.

And finally, the third axis that everyone always forgets:
Supported or Unsupported.

An Open System consists of multiple layers. We can talk about open-closed, public-proprietary, supported-unsupported about any of these layers. At the lowest level, we could discuss about the basic physical connectivity of devices (RS-485 is open, public and supported). All the way up to the configuration/programming tools and the front ends. (LNS is open, proprietary, and supported).

Open is a concept that works for todays buildings. It provides more flexibility to the end-user (customer) even when parts of the overall system are proprietary.

We can "bla bla" like this for hours, and indeed we have seen this more than once in this forum. In the end, what really counts is a happy customer. Because a happy customer comes back for more or recommends you to other potential customers. This can be achieved in a myriads of ways with a lot of work, and destroyed very rapidly. Price, Service, Workmanship, process working as specified or better, user-friendliness, etc, is what makes a customer happy or unhappy.

Open or Closed is not as important as the previous sentence.

Key terms in a nutshell:

Open: the ability to mix and match components of a particular layer between different manufacturers.

Closed: only use components of a specific manufacturer

Proprietary: a way to protect your intellectual property by not divulgating key aspects of your products or processes.

Public domain: revealing key aspects of a product or process so that anybody else can do the same.

Supported: a product or process for which you can obtain good support.

Unsupported: a product or process for which you can't obtain good support.

[nikko]

nice post Yroy

Nikko

[mech_head]

Ditto

[sysint]

"...In the end, what really counts is a happy customer. Because a happy customer comes back for more or recommends you to other potential customers. This can be achieved in a myriads of ways with a lot of work, and destroyed very rapidly. Price, Service, Workmanship, process working as specified or better, user-friendliness, etc, is what makes a customer happy or unhappy."

Lets go with the customer who gets UNHAPPY.... from the customer's standpoint what do you think they want for damage control?

[Chris_Worthington]

Bravo, Yroy......... well said

[kostasgreece]

That is one of the best posts ever written in this forum IMO...
Accurate opinions,shot on the target, well technical documented..
Bravo Yroy...

When it comes to customer satisfaction - meeting expectations and
on his time depth support (not only by the system developer/contractor),
but also by a bunch of other ABCS, branches (name it as you like),
that sounds as a successful system to me..
and i totaly support anybody stands on that..

[lonboy]

Why Roy?
You hit the head on the nail, eh?
Cheers,
lb

[gnomethang]

Top Post

[steves4]

Great responses to this question all around. It's obvious that a lot of people on this list get the concept, and the reality, of open systems.

Here a couple more attributes of Open Systems.
- They promote competition by giving a customer choice of manufacturer and product (within limits)
- They facilitate best of breed solutions by making the system more extensible and flexible
- They provide a way for the system to evolve and change along with the customer's requirements and level of sophistication without complete reliance on a locked-in vendor to provide all solutions
- They help to drive down the total cost of ownership for the customer in large part because of the options and choice that they provide over the life of the system.
- They help to promote innovation within the industry because without having a strangle hold forever on the customer vendors now more then ever need a way to differentiate themselves. They can do this by providing better algorithms within their system, more intuitive and feature rich user interfaces, and better service and support to the customer.

[sysint]

"best of breed" -- I vote to retire this phrase.

[dapper]

Good comments steves4 !!

[ctrlguy]

"best of breed" -- I vote to retire this phrase.

Ditto. Only I think it might be on my website.

[gnomethang]

"best of breed" -- I vote to retire this phrase.

I concur.
With all due respect to steves4, to me that sounded like sales-spiel rather than reality, particularly when read Against yroy's post.

"If I had a Bob for every BOB that I heard I would have a few Bob, I can tell you!."

[sysint]

That is the rallying cry of the Lonworks integrator by Steves4.
--- For the record: That would be me identifying bias fairly.

However, even this is Lonworks sourced material:
Open is not the opposite of Proprietary.
Open is the opposite of Closed.

I'm still debating whether to ask that those comments be attributed...

[Ausccn]

Thanks Guys/Girls that has answered my question!!!!

[steves4]

I concur.
With all due respect to steves4, to me that sounded like sales-spiel rather than reality, particularly when read Against yroy's post.

"If I had a Bob for every BOB that I heard I would have a few Bob, I can tell you!."

Actually, it wasn't intended to be a sales spiel or to detract from yroy's post. You have to look at open systems from both the business and technology side. It depends where you sit as to which attributes are most important to you. If you are the end customer probably the business benefits are most important. These can be achieved independently of which technology horse you choose to ride or what manufacturer you support. If you're an integrator you tend to look at the technology attributes and go with what you are most comfortable and familiar with. When you are in your comfort zone you can be most efficient and effective.

[Ausccn]

It is very interesting too see what everyones' views are on this subject, I thank all for their input.... It is very different here in Aus......everyone just wants to screw the next one...!!!!!

[ControlSyd]

Well if it was open I would not need to use my brains wasting time learning every system Installed, but they do say you stay young longer

Its always a challenge to find ways around with bridges and gateways at least Lonworks is still open in Australia where Bacnet seems to have been sold in zoned Licences