Heat Pump or Air Conditioner in NJ? - Page 7
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  1. #79
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Baltimore MD and Ridgebury PA
    Posts
    542
    Quote Originally Posted by shodinjido View Post
    LOL

    Ya you right. I think my brains have turned to mush on this thread.

    I still maintain that there isn't enough info to know where to set the od stat. Just because the heat pump shows equal cost at 16 degrees doesn't mean it is economical to run at that temp. Yes I agree that defrosts add to cost but that's not the only thing that should be considered (which is accounted for by the defrost knee in the Economic Balance point graph). The HP is only putting 21,000 btus at 16 degrees. It's doubtful that the ID thermostat would even let the HP run down to that temp due to rate of heat loss (but again, there is no Man J info here).

    This is all conjecture. Having all the information needed makes this so much easier
    Agreed

  2. #80
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    14
    Figured I'd post a follow-up to what we actually ended up doing.

    After receiving quotes from 3 different installers we have decided to go with the Lennox XC-15 Air Conditioner. We really wanted to get a heat pump, however in the end the assinine qualifications for the NJ rebates caused it to not be affordable.

    I went through and ran the numbers and found that I would save around $120 a year with a heat pump. This number however was heavily influenced by the relative prices in gas vs electricity, a relatively small increase in the price of gas could increase the savings significantly. Of course the opposite is also true. Unfortunately, the equivalent Lennox heat pump cost $1200 more than the AC. This alone would have meant a rather long return on investment, but we probably would have still gotten it. Unfortunately, while the air conditioner qualified for a $400 rebate from NJ, the heat pump would not qualify for either that one, or the lesser tier rebate. That meant that the total cost to us was actually $1600 more, and the ROI was therefore to long.

    It seems ridiculous to me that the NJ rebates ended up forcing us into a less efficient solution, but I guess thats politics.

  3. #81
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    28
    Most of the discussion relates to U.S locations, does anyone have any experience with installing a heat pump in Toronto? Is Toronto too far north to benefit from the technology? No one I know uses a heat pump here, yet it was suggested to me today instead of an A/C. I would pair it up with a high efficiency furnace and use the rebates which are quite good. I haven't done any calculations yet...but generally based upon the discussion, it seems like a good idea. Comments? If recommended, which hp's should I stay away from?

  4. #82
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Baltimore MD and Ridgebury PA
    Posts
    542
    Quote Originally Posted by yazza View Post
    Most of the discussion relates to U.S locations, does anyone have any experience with installing a heat pump in Toronto? Is Toronto too far north to benefit from the technology? No one I know uses a heat pump here, yet it was suggested to me today instead of an A/C. I would pair it up with a high efficiency furnace and use the rebates which are quite good. I haven't done any calculations yet...but generally based upon the discussion, it seems like a good idea. Comments? If recommended, which hp's should I stay away from?
    Well, the first question would be what are you using to heat your home in lieu of a heat pump? We have had several other people from Canada ask about dual-fuel setups. In those cases, thus far, a heat pump with electric (backup) heat came out cheaper than a heat pump with an oil furnace (backup) heat. This is because of the increased cost of electricity (whether used for heating loads or used for other electrical loads) when the temperature is below -15 degrees C if you are using dual-fuel. Which apparently occurs rather frequently in Canada.

    So generally, it seems, its not advantageous to do duel-fuel in Canada... however several people have done a straight heat pump with electric backup. Of course, this depends on what you plan to use for heat instead of a heat pump and the prices you would pay for for the alternative fuel compared to your electricity cost. Please post this info.

  5. #83
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    28
    Quote Originally Posted by platchford View Post
    Well, the first question would be what are you using to heat your home in lieu of a heat pump?
    Of course, this depends on what you plan to use for heat instead of a heat pump and the prices you would pay for for the alternative fuel compared to your electricity cost. Please post this info.
    I guess I would need to know the data that is relevant to getting you the correct information. To start.....the house is 1518 square feet w/o the finished basement. New high efficiency windows (argon gas etc) installed throughout house, north/south facing. Built in 1986. Presently use gas heating. Cost of gas presently here is 30.3556 cents per cubic metre. Electricity costs 5.3 cents per kilowatt hour (kWh) for the first 600 kWh they use each month (750kWh for non-residential customers,) and 6.2 cents per kWh for electricity used per month over this amount. Electrical costs will be going up as the province is building additional generation (nuclear/gas) which costs big money! Seasonal averages in fahrenheit are as follows high is first number/low second: Jan 29/18 Feb 30/19 March 38/27 April 50/36 May 61/46 June 71/55 July 77/61 August 76/62 Sept 68/55 October 56/44 November45/35 December 35/24.

  6. #84
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    14
    Hrm, so in a thread entitled Heat Pump or Air Conditioner in NJ, why are there mostly unrelated discussions about propane, and Toronto?

    You guys are rather lacking in good forum etiquette.

  7. #85
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    28
    Good point- my apologies...I was just following the thread. Anyways I have my answer at this point. Thanks for your patience.

  8. #86
    very interesting thread. thank you for all of the great information. I am in a similar situation in St. Louis. The one question that has not been answered clearly is how much increased wear does the heat pump add to the outside unit compared to just an A/C unit? What is the expected lifespan of the heat pump compared to the A/C unit? That difference( and its added cost)is one more factor to consider in the break even analysis comparing the two.
    Thanks in advance for a great site.
    Joe H

  9. #87
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Jackson, NJ
    Posts
    176
    Quote Originally Posted by rman222 View Post
    very interesting thread. thank you for all of the great information. I am in a similar situation in St. Louis. The one question that has not been answered clearly is how much increased wear does the heat pump add to the outside unit compared to just an A/C unit? What is the expected lifespan of the heat pump compared to the A/C unit? That difference( and its added cost)is one more factor to consider in the break even analysis comparing the two.
    Thanks in advance for a great site.
    Joe H
    Good (unanswered) question. *BUMP*

  10. #88
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    134
    Quote Originally Posted by rman222 View Post
    very interesting thread. thank you for all of the great information. I am in a similar situation in St. Louis. The one question that has not been answered clearly is how much increased wear does the heat pump add to the outside unit compared to just an A/C unit? What is the expected lifespan of the heat pump compared to the A/C unit? That difference( and its added cost)is one more factor to consider in the break even analysis comparing the two.
    Thanks in advance for a great site.
    Joe H
    The answer to this question is very subjective and can't be answered accurately...only guessed.

    There will be more wear. How much? Don't know. Will the unit be sized properly? Will the od thermostat temperature setting be calculated and set correctly? Average condenser (air conditioner and heat pump) lifespan is around 15 years. I've seen 20 year old heat pumps still chugging away.

    Make sure that the system is professionally designed and installed and has yearly maintenance and you'll have a better chance at longer life.

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