I do nto see an 18 Year ROI if you have to replace your unit anyway
Originally Posted by jrbenny
Aire Serv of SW Connecticut- Gas heat, dual fuel and central a/c systems installed and serviced
Perhaps you should have read the instructions before calling.
I recently had a Climatemaster Tranquility two stage heat pump (64,000 Btu) installed in my house (3600 sq ft) in South East PA. The pump has been in for 5 months.
My total heating cost (cost to run the heat pump over and above my usual electric costs) for Jan, Feb and Mar was less than $200. I anticipate that over the entire heating season, my heating costs would be roughly $300.
Note that my house is roughly 18 years old and hence is not a product of good construction practices used today.
Before going for the heating pump, I owned a 93% efficient propane furnace which consumed 800-1000 gallons of propane/yr. Current propane costs for me would have been $2.40/gallon - I own my own tank.
In keeping with site rules, I cannot disclose my installation cost. But I can tell you that pay back time at 8% return will be between 6-8 yrs. Note, pay back time is the time to recover incremental cost that I took on by going for a geothermal system.
Traverse: I was able to see the geothermal system price quoted to you before the moderator took it off. Yes, I agree that at those costs you cannot recover your investment in reasonable time.
In my case, I believe I will be able to recover my costs and then some. But I would have made the decision in favor of a geothermal system irrespective of the returns.
You will have to make the decision that suits you best.
Best regards to all,
You know, I always wonder why people think they need a ROI on there heating and a/c. Whats your ROI on your vehicle?
Take a comparable estimate on a convential high eff. system, and a estimate on a geo. You must have quality work on both estimates. deduct the conventional sys. from the geo sys. the difference is what you should be trying to justify. Otherwise you are comparing operating cost of the exsisting system to // installation and operating cost of a geo.
Not that this applies to the OP but a lot of the people I see strugling with utilities have either a large home or an energy INEFFICIENT home. You can take the most energy efficient unit install it in a barn (poorly insulated leaky house) and its still going to cost a lot to condition it.
Just my thoughts
I never let schooling interfere with my education... Mark Twain
The method for determining roi varies depending on what you think roi means.
I have installs that save 2000-4000 a year over their previous systems. I sell both air source and water source systems also.
The OP needs to consider that other factors are in the price of bid to upgrade his system such as duct revisions, zoning, new stats and I'm assuming sealing and insulating the duct as well. Zoning will lower operating costs with a dual capacity compressor by modulating the capacity of operation and save even more energy. If you just compare equipment costs, find the most effcient, highest end air source heat pump system, compare it to the geo and the air source is still 2 or 3 times LESS efficient then a geo, with eers of 25 to 30 where the best air source eer is 13+
Take all the other costs out of the bid, compare costs of both( equipment ) and the pay off between the two will be 3-5 years or less ( depending on cost per kw) I'm not saying geo is the best for every application, but it is superior in efficiecny period.
That, says me!
Last edited by geodude; 04-06-2008 at 12:13 AM.
Genius = The guy who can do anything...except make a living!
For hp vs hp, the ROI isn't very complicated to estimate.
Originally Posted by geodude
Let's assume that the water source hp is exactly twice as efficient as the air source hp. In a 2000 sq ft house rated for 3 tons of A/C, assume a conservative anual electric bill of 2000. Also assume only 1000 of that is due to the hp (it's actually less than that on average). This is with a 10SEER hp.
Replace the old 10 SEER with a 14 SEER HP and the hp portion of the bill drops to 700 per year. Replace the 10 SEER with a 20 EER water source and the hp portion of the bill drops to about 450 per year.
The difference is 250/yr.
Over 20 years the savings of the water source comes to 5000.
The 14 SEER air source cost around 6000 to install, the water source (including ground loop, etc.) cost around 16000. Difference 10000. It'll take you another 20 years, 40 years in all, to see a payback. And that's if you pay for it up front.
I don't assume that these figures are going to be accurate, they were just chosen to illustrate the general idea, which is that even if you had a infinitely efficient geothermal hp, the most energy that it would save over the air source hp would be what the air souce hp uses, which for new high SEER air source HP's isn't really all that much. Even if you allowed 1000/yr for the air source heat pumps use, it would take 10 to 20 years to see a payback on an infinitely efficient geothermal system, i.e. a hypothetical system that uses no energy at all.
The payback period typically gets shorter as the size of the house gets bigger because installation price doesn't increases proportionally to the size of the system, but it can still be difficult to fudge an ROI on a geo vs air source hp over the useful life of the system.
I'd also like to reiterate what jrbenny stated, most of the time there isn't even a justifiable ROI for a 21 SEER vs a 13 SEER. If you're going with a 21 SEER Infinity system, for instance, it should be because you are wanting comfort first, and savings second. It will provide a decent ROI over a 10 SEER, but not over a 13 SEER, usually.
Last edited by hvacrmedic; 04-06-2008 at 01:51 AM.
Am I reading you right and your saying that $347/month for 20 years to pay for the system they quoted?
Originally Posted by traverse
I think the idea of geothermal is great.
Unfortunately the initial cost to install the loop ruins it for most people.
If you can afford to do it, I would say then do it, and forget about ROI.
I don't suppose there would be any chance of doing an open-loop WSHP rather than closed loop where you're at, would there Mr. Traverse?
This space for rent.
A correctly installed Geothermal system will last longer is more reliable than a regular heatpump. Just another factor to consider in your considerations.
Engineers like to solve problems. If there are no problems handily available, they will create their own." Scott Adams
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
The problem with many of the payback/ROI calcs, is there is no way to acturately predict the cost of electric 10 years down the road.
PA will be seeing rate hikes 30 to 40% in 2010.
After that, they may increase at lower or higher percentages( part of the competitive deregulation ) every 5 years.
It unfortunately comes down to trail and error with todays energy markets.
Is there a geo chart similar to this one ? http://www.hvacopcost.com/
My avatar is a picture of a Goodman Silencer .....These were commonly used in Goodman country ....Photos by hvac tech ( PaysonHVAC )
Your number doesn't seem to work for me ??
Originally Posted by JVK
You mean your heating cost on electric is $300 for the whole heating season !
and $2400 with Propane !
Something is not right here !
What is your electric rate ?
Have you given any thought to Micro-CHP?
This technology is now available in Mass and with anywhere from an 8 to 12 year payback (depending on electric rates) ranks eight up there as being the most feasible option. Go to www.freewatt.com and check it out.