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  1. #40
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    Yeah builders want to do everything on the cheap, but I agree that a hp with gas backup might be the thing to do which is why I was thinking about doing it since I have natural gas. With the little I know about today's electric pricing and the future removal of the EH rate, I am going to take a wait and see moment and not just scrap my exisiting working system(aboslutely nothing wrong with it)just to put a hp in.

  2. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by jerrod6 View Post
    Yeah builders want to do everything on the cheap, but I agree that a hp with gas backup might be the thing to do which is why I was thinking about doing it since I have natural gas. With the little I know about today's electric pricing and the future removal of the EH rate, I am going to take a wait and see moment and not just scrap my exisiting working system(aboslutely nothing wrong with it)just to put a hp in.
    What happens with rates really is irrelevent to the discussion. If you want the best system (for warm air aside from a groundsource Geothermal) it doesn't matter what will happen with electric rates,really, does it? What is likely the scenario is Peco's rates are going to 10+ cents in April. The RH discount is supposed to halve so probably an increase from about 6.6 cents to around 8 cents this year and to the full non-discounted 10+ cents (plus future increases) next year. Amounts to a 67% increase over last year's rate for RH (consider that the discount is not for your entire electric consumption but only usage over I believe 500kWh from 12/15 to 3/15?) so it's actually less than 60% but still considerable. At the moment alternative suppliers like Stream can offer under 8 cents but they cannot yet poach electric heat accounts, but when the RH discount goes away you'll have that option as well.

    Bottom line is your best option barring geothermal or a hot water system, is a high efficiency heat pump with gas backup, no matter what happens to prices for power.

    Are you Peco gas or PGW gas?

  3. #42
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    Jul 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnCap523 View Post
    What happens with rates really is irrelevent to the discussion. If you want the best system (for warm air aside from a groundsource Geothermal) it doesn't matter what will happen with electric rates,really, does it? What is likely the scenario is Peco's rates are going to 10+ cents in April. The RH discount is supposed to halve so probably an increase from about 6.6 cents to around 8 cents this year and to the full non-discounted 10+ cents (plus future increases) next year. Amounts to a 67% increase over last year's rate for RH (consider that the discount is not for your entire electric consumption but only usage over I believe 500kWh from 12/15 to 3/15?) so it's actually less than 60% but still considerable. At the moment alternative suppliers like Stream can offer under 8 cents but they cannot yet poach electric heat accounts, but when the RH discount goes away you'll have that option as well.

    Bottom line is your best option barring geothermal or a hot water system, is a high efficiency heat pump with gas backup, no matter what happens to prices for power.

    Are you Peco gas or PGW gas?
    Part of what concerns me is that they will change the rate every quarter. The other thing that concerns me is that it is not just the electric generation rate that we need to be concerned with. The 10 cents only covers electric generation, it does not cover distribution(every one pays this regardless of electric provider) or transmission which is also billed by KWH. If you add the .0992generation, distribution, and transmission together we are currently paying.15270 per KWH in the winter, so I think this is the rate you would multiply against the KWH instead of .10 cents.

    I have PGW gas which also charges variable distribution by CCF. My total rate is 1.49 per CCF plus $12 connect charge. In December I used 91 CCF however 19 of this was hot water and gas dryer. For electric in December I used 865 kwh for $137.

  4. #43
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    Jan 2011
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    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrod6 View Post
    Part of what concerns me is that they will change the rate every quarter. The other thing that concerns me is that it is not just the electric generation rate that we need to be concerned with. The 10 cents only covers electric generation, it does not cover distribution(every one pays this regardless of electric provider) or transmission which is also billed by KWH. If you add the .0992generation, distribution, and transmission together we are currently paying.15270 per KWH in the winter, so I think this is the rate you would multiply against the KWH instead of .10 cents.

    I have PGW gas which also charges variable distribution by CCF. My total rate is 1.49 per CCF plus $12 connect charge. In December I used 91 CCF however 19 of this was hot water and gas dryer. For electric in December I used 865 kwh for $137.
    My point is, it really doesn't matter what the price is, within reason, you still would opt for the best combination of units to give you the best comfort, efficiency and value. The added cost of a heat pump compared to a relatively equivalent central air condenser and A-coil isn't a lot of money so to have the option of switching between heat pump or gas whenever you feel like it is still gonna be the best option.

    And yes, deregulation makes us flags in the breeze. Someone, some day will explain to me how deregulation works for me! This is a public utility, supposed to theoretically be non-profit, working to serve the public. Why shouldn't their rates be regulated? Now we have this free-for-all that for the life of me I just don't get. Buying power from who knows where that gets sent over the same wires, with the same incumbent company still having to meter it and come out for service and bill it. I just don't get the point. But I WILL be cecking my wires to make sure I get the power I paid for and not someone else's especially since I have opted for green energy. I don't want to see an coal- or oil-fired power coming down my wires.

  5. #44
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    here is a little info for you all, i just paid my oil bill at almost 3.70 per gallon. using about five gallons per day. ugh. but my radiant sure is comfy. cant wait to see my new peco bill this summer when the ac kicks in, for now its minimal at only sixty five bucks or so per month.

  6. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by flange View Post
    here is a little info for you all, i just paid my oil bill at almost 3.70 per gallon. using about five gallons per day. ugh. but my radiant sure is comfy. cant wait to see my new peco bill this summer when the ac kicks in, for now its minimal at only sixty five bucks or so per month.
    I swore I'd never buy another house with warm air heat but here I am 35 days into the new house with, ugh, warm air. Had I not bought this one with finished basement I'd be installing under the floor radiant right now and a boiler!

    I envy you. And my sinuses envy you!

  7. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by flange View Post
    here is a little info for you all, i just paid my oil bill at almost 3.70 per gallon. using about five gallons per day. ugh. but my radiant sure is comfy. cant wait to see my new peco bill this summer when the ac kicks in, for now its minimal at only sixty five bucks or so per month.
    Sixty five a month? You must be using under 500kwh. My highest AC bill last summer was 1,425 kwh for $242.....but the house was hot at 80F.

    I get the point that being able to switch back and forth between HP and natural gas or something else is the most flexible. I think I heard about a York hybrid system...is that what it is doing...moving beteeen HP and natural gas?

  8. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by jerrod6 View Post
    Sixty five a month? You must be using under 500kwh. My highest AC bill last summer was 1,425 kwh for $242.....but the house was hot at 80F.

    I get the point that being able to switch back and forth between HP and natural gas or something else is the most flexible. I think I heard about a York hybrid system...is that what it is doing...moving beteeen HP and natural gas?
    Yea, they've started calling heat pumps with a fossil fuel backup hybrids. Nothing special about it by brand. Any heat pump with a gas, or even oil, backup can be considered a hybrid.

    I used almost 1,300kWh this past month. Can't wait to see my summer bills.

  9. #48
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    na, when i crank up the ac, it goes up a bit to just under two hundy, but most weekends are spent at the shore, and the old vision pro sets back to 78 during the day.

  10. #49
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    Mar 2007
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    S. Central PA
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    PA PPL pricing change

    Nothing to do with PECO, but PPL has just started a new time of day pricing plan in January 2011 that will be significantly cheaper - meaning about .06 kwh off peak, .07 kwh peak (5-7PM winter) and much cheaper than current fixed price plans. Yes it is bait and switch but it will save you 20% until they change in May 11. Go with it now and switch later depending on rates.

    To all Pennsylvanians I'd like to once again publicly thank Gov Ridge for creating the electric dereg and pension increase in PA. He signed both and we all got shafted, but that's typical of America.

  11. #50
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    Jul 2003
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    PECO is owned by the Excelon Corp. I have been to some of the Excelon web sites and see that some of their companies have the ability to charge different rates by the hour. I expect that PECO energy customers will have to do this at some point especially since smart meters are now mandated in PA(I wonder whose Idea that was?). I currently have a semi smart meter because it transmittes my meter reading back to the company every morning.. at least that's what they said...perhaps every hour....so no need for a human meter reader and they generate my bill a few hours after the reading date cut off....good for them--I have the bill on a web site the next day and expected to pay.

    Off topic for HVAC but still relevant because many of us were encouraged to heat our homes with EL or are thinking about it, and I still have to wonder what the future will bring for El heating in Pa. I used to enjoy having a HP and even though it might be a flexible option I am still not sure because you really can't trust anything especially a corporation that you can buy stock in.

    Go to the Excelon web site. You will see talk their large size, of giving back to the community...is that a good thing? NOT INTERESTED. All I want is reasonable electric rates without having to subsidize the community through my electric bill and some company that really doesn't care a hoot about me--just my bill paying ability.

    PECO's current "smart Idea" offer is that they will install a device by your Ac which will turn it off duirng peak hours and you COULD save between 10 and 30%. Ummm you mean when it is hot and you need it? when it's cold and you need it...and I am supposed to want someone else controlling my unit? I guess I am just angry about it.

    Sticking with natural gas furnace for now.

  12. #51
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    Jan 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by jerrod6 View Post
    PECO is owned by the Excelon Corp. I have been to some of the Excelon web sites and see that some of their companies have the ability to charge different rates by the hour. I expect that PECO energy customers will have to do this at some point especially since smart meters are now mandated in PA(I wonder whose Idea that was?). I currently have a semi smart meter because it transmittes my meter reading back to the company every morning.. at least that's what they said...perhaps every hour....so no need for a human meter reader and they generate my bill a few hours after the reading date cut off....good for them--I have the bill on a web site the next day and expected to pay.

    Off topic for HVAC but still relevant because many of us were encouraged to heat our homes with EL or are thinking about it, and I still have to wonder what the future will bring for El heating in Pa. I used to enjoy having a HP and even though it might be a flexible option I am still not sure because you really can't trust anything especially a corporation that you can buy stock in.

    Go to the Excelon web site. You will see talk their large size, of giving back to the community...is that a good thing? NOT INTERESTED. All I want is reasonable electric rates without having to subsidize the community through my electric bill and some company that really doesn't care a hoot about me--just my bill paying ability.

    PECO's current "smart Idea" offer is that they will install a device by your Ac which will turn it off duirng peak hours and you COULD save between 10 and 30%. Ummm you mean when it is hot and you need it? when it's cold and you need it...and I am supposed to want someone else controlling my unit? I guess I am just angry about it.

    Sticking with natural gas furnace for now.
    I worked for Peco for 15 years. The nuclear guys who took over after the mid-90s debacle ran it so far into the ground, had Exelon not come along they'd have been a penny stock. As it was the stock was down udner $5. Exelon is a good company. Peco was when it was Philadelphia Electric, but as Peco Energy, before Exelon, it was crap.

    Variable rates are coming. We had them before with the WH, or OP, rate for hot wather heating that was first mechanically and then remotely interrupted both by time of day and then when peek demands were in force. But interrupting a water heater and other stuff you might have connected like a dryer is completely different than allowing your air conditioner or heat pump to be shut off because it's too cold or too hot, as you said, when you need it most.

    The most likely scneario is you'll pay higher rates for mid afternoon summertime use compared to use at 3AM. I think PP&L just announced that kind of variable rate structure as an option.

  13. #52
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    Jul 2003
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    Philadelphia Pa.
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    Here is an update found in the local newspaper today

    Today’s Philadelphia Inquirer states that PECO, as required by the deregulating law, is phasing out the discounts for electric heating and off-peak water heating. They will be cut in half by at the end of the year and phased out completely by the end of 2012. They are mailing out notices over the next 3 months so that their switchboards don't get jammed with calls.

    There are an estimated 141,000 residents who get the heating discount, 65,000 receive the off-peak water discounts and 9,000 get both.

    If you are a heat pump installer in this area how will this affect you?

    If you are a PECO Energy heating or off peak water heater customer what impact will this phase out have on you?

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