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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    The South
    Posts
    2,185
    sdgrease

    Exactly.You picked up on my very point. Trane two stg upper end models are very poor with their performance numbers and BTUs in both cooling and heating.

    I suggest looking at the single stg Carrier Performance 15 model and Trane's XL15i paired with matching var speed air handlers. Of course with the Performance model, I would recommend the Infinity Controller and with Trane's XL15i the Honeywell Vision Pro IAQ-simply dislike Trane's stats. The performance numbers on these models are very good.

    IMO


    1258753 Active OEM PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA548A30 FE4ANB006+UI 48000 13.00 15.50 47000 8.70 29400

    1382178 Active OEM XL15I WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWX5048A1 4TEE3F65B1 48000 12.25 15.00 47500 9.00 30200

    Numbers provided from the CEE HVAC directory

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    24
    Quote Originally Posted by tigerdunes View Post
    ... I suggest looking at the single stg Carrier Performance 15 model and Trane's XL15i paired with matching var speed air handlers. Of course with the Performance model, I would recommend the Infinity Controller and with Trane's XL15i the Honeywell Vision Pro IAQ-simply dislike Trane's stats. The performance numbers on these models are very good.

    IMO


    1258753 Active OEM PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA548A30 FE4ANB006+UI 48000 13.00 15.50 47000 8.70 29400

    1382178 Active OEM XL15I WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWX5048A1 4TEE3F65B1 48000 12.25 15.00 47500 9.00 30200

    Numbers provided from the CEE HVAC directory
    I was able to look up similar combinations on the ARI Directory, with the same results. I notice that the Perf 15 25HPA548H30 gives slightly better HSPF at 9.0 vs the 25HPA548A30 at 8.7. What's the difference between these two heat pumps?

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    The South
    Posts
    2,185
    sdgrease

    Sorry about missing that particular configuration. It is slightly better. I don't know what the difference is between those two HP condensers. Usually when there is a suffix change, it indicates an improvement or a correction.

    IMO

    1125973 Active OEM PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA548H30 FE4ANB006+UI 48000 13.00 15.50 48000 9.00 30000

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    24
    Quote Originally Posted by tigerdunes View Post
    ... the single stg Carrier Performance 15 model and Trane's XL15i paired with matching var speed air handlers....
    So the EER, SEER, HSPF performance figures look pretty good on these. And I assume that they will have lower installed cost than the 2-stage units. But:
    • how can I evaluate the dehumidication capability of the single stage versus the 2-stage models?
      And,
    • how will that difference, here in Central ("It's not the heat its the humidity") Florida, will affect the operating cost?

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    The South
    Posts
    2,185
    sdgrease

    High end sgl stage models like the Performance 15 and XL15i will cost less than an Infinity 2 stg or XL16i two stg. Yes you will lose a little comfort and operating eff but you have to weigh that cost difference. But the numbers on the both the Performance 15 and XL15i are very good.

    Just for info, these same models are available from the sister companies of Carrier and Trane, Bryant and Am Standard.

    For good dehumidification, you need a controller that slows blower speed-both the Infinity controller and the Honeywell VP IAQ do that.

    Either of these systems with a var spd air handler will be a big improvement over your existing 15 yr old system in both comfort and operating cost

    IMO

  6. #19

    Talking xl16i

    Quote Originally Posted by sdgrease View Post
    What is it about the XL16i that you think makes this the best choice? I am shying away from the XL19i for two reasons - (i) R-22, and (ii) the dual compressor set up seems to just add to the number of parts that can break.
    WE HAVE HAD A FEW PROBLEMS WITH THE XL19I BUT THE COST IS UP THERE , R22, LARGER REF LINES REQUIRED ALL IN ALL THE 16 HAS BEEN A PERFECT UNIT SO FAR.

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    24
    Quote Originally Posted by mannyparad View Post
    WE HAVE HAD A FEW PROBLEMS WITH THE XL19I BUT THE COST IS UP THERE , R22, LARGER REF LINES REQUIRED ALL IN ALL THE 16 HAS BEEN A PERFECT UNIT SO FAR.
    I can understand some issues, maybe with the XL19i. However, what does the XL16i offer that you think is better than the Carrier Infinity 16/19 or the Lennox XP19? Assuming I go for a 2-stage unit, these are all in the running for my installation.

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    24
    I have received formal quotes from my contractors. Current manufacturer incentives make it pretty easy for me to justify the two stage units. I am looking at these combinations, from lowest to highest price:

    1. Lennox: XP19 XP19-048-230* / CBX32MV-048-230* EER 12.35; SEER 17; HSPF 9
    2. Carrier: Infinity16 25HNA648A30 / FE4ANB006 EER 11.8; SEER 16.3; HSPF 9.3
    3. Trane: XL16i 4TWX6048B1 / 4TEE3F49B1 EER 11.5; SEER 15.5; HSPF 9.1

    Installed prices of these three are all within two hundred dollars of each other, and scope still seems comparable (within reason). Of the listed three, Lennox XP-19 is leading the pack, and is advocated by the contractor who installed my current Trane system 15 years ago and has given me good service since then. Because of concerns noted by you folks, I asked about Lennox customer service and parts availability, and my contractor tells me those may be a problem for some, but he has good access to parts, and his relationship with Lennox is good.
    I am not looking at XL19i or Infinity 19. Infinity 19 is quite a bit more expensive and tougher to justify. Trane XL19i is also more expensive, but within reach of the three I listed. However, as mentioned before, I prefer to stay away from the R-22 and more complex 2 compressor setup.

    There are a couple of things I still want to clarify, to make sure I have as close to an apples-to-apples comparison as possible, and I would like some input from you folks. Will cover in a separate post.
    Thanks,

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    The South
    Posts
    2,185
    sdgrease

    On the surface, the Lennox XP19 has the best numbers;however, when you look behind the numbers, you will see that the XP19 is short on cooling BTUs for a 4 ton system. Because of this, I would select the Infinity 16 with Infinity controller as my choice between these two stg heat pumps.

    IMO

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Office and warehouse in both Crystal River & New Port Richey ,FL
    Posts
    18,836
    Quote Originally Posted by sdgrease View Post
    I have received formal quotes from my contractors. Current manufacturer incentives make it pretty easy for me to justify the two stage units. I am looking at these combinations, from lowest to highest price:

    1. Lennox: XP19 XP19-048-230* / CBX32MV-048-230* EER 12.35; SEER 17; HSPF 9
    2. Carrier: Infinity16 25HNA648A30 / FE4ANB006 EER 11.8; SEER 16.3; HSPF 9.3
    3. Trane: XL16i 4TWX6048B1 / 4TEE3F49B1 EER 11.5; SEER 15.5; HSPF 9.1

    Installed prices of these three are all within two hundred dollars of each other, and scope still seems comparable (within reason). Of the listed three, Lennox XP-19 is leading the pack, and is advocated by the contractor who installed my current Trane system 15 years ago and has given me good service since then. Because of concerns noted by you folks, I asked about Lennox customer service and parts availability, and my contractor tells me those may be a problem for some, but he has good access to parts, and his relationship with Lennox is good.
    I am not looking at XL19i or Infinity 19. Infinity 19 is quite a bit more expensive and tougher to justify. Trane XL19i is also more expensive, but within reach of the three I listed. However, as mentioned before, I prefer to stay away from the R-22 and more complex 2 compressor setup.

    There are a couple of things I still want to clarify, to make sure I have as close to an apples-to-apples comparison as possible, and I would like some input from you folks. Will cover in a separate post.
    Thanks,
    The Carrier will includ the Infinity Control,the best for dehumidification.If you choose one of the others,besure you are getting the closest thing to it,likely the Honeywell IAQ stat..

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    24
    Quote Originally Posted by tigerdunes View Post
    sdgrease

    On the surface, the Lennox XP19 has the best numbers;however, when you look behind the numbers, you will see that the XP19 is short on cooling BTUs for a 4 ton system. Because of this, I would select the Infinity 16 with Infinity controller as my choice between these two stg heat pumps.

    IMO
    Good point - 46500 for the Lennox XP-19 system, 48000 for that particular Infinity 16 system (there was another bid for only 47000 and slightly lower EER/SEER/HSPF numbers). That's just great! Another factor to consider . No rest for the weary. (or is it 'no rest for the wicked'?)

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    24

    Honeywell vs Lennox controllers

    The impression I get is that you folks feel the Carrier Infinity control is the best in the market. However, I think I can only use that if I install a Carrier Infinity HP and AH (which I am still considering) from "contractor A".

    "Contractor B", who is pushing the Lennox XP-19, has proposed a Honeywell “touchscreen” control for either his Trane XL16i offer or for the Lennox XP-19. I am really confused about his control offer, and need to talk with him about it tomorrow, but I would like to hear what you folks think.

    In earlier conversations, Contractor B mentioned a Honeywell TCON 803. He also said that, even for use with the Lennox, he preferred the TCON 803 over the Lennox control, but I don’t remember his reasons (if he even stated them). The Honeywell brochure in his quote package does not seem to mention any TCON803 device. From a note in his package, he seems to be proposing one of the Honeywell TH8110/TH8320/TH8321 family, but I’m not sure which one. The brochure states that only the TH8321 has dehumidification control.

    Question 1 – Can any of you explain to me what the TCON 803 might be, and how that relates to the TH8110/TH8320/TH8321 controllers?

    Question 2 - If I accept his proposal for the Honeywell control, do you recommend the TH8321? I assume that the answer will be “yes”, based on other comments about the value of humidity control allowing a higher temperature set-point with lower humidity for good comfort.

    Contractor B also included a brochure for the Lennox “SignatureStat” controller in his quote, but I’m not sure why, since, as I said, he seems to be quoting a Honeywell controller for either Trane or Lennox heat pump.

    Question 3 – If I proceed with the Lennox XP-19, can any of you comment on the Lennox SignatureStat as compared to the Honeywell TH8110/TH8320/TH8321 controllers?

    I will appreciate any advice that you can offer!

  13. #26
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Posts
    34,040
    Looking closer at Trane:

    16i 4 ton, best performance is matching with 4TEE3D49 air handler

    15.50 SEER, 11.20 EER, 9.10 HSPF, but heating only 43,000 BTU

    to see how it dehumidifies, look at sensible heat ratio on low, that 78% meaning lousy dehumidification on low which is what it will run most of the time. You'd definitely want dehumidify on demand and run the blower slower, that will give 74% sensible so dry the house better.

    Or save the money and forget 2 stage. 75% or so on low isn't that big of a deal anyway.

    15i 4 ton, best performance is matching with 4TEE3F65

    15.00 SEER, 12.25 EER so over 1 point more, 9 HSPF, heating capacity quite a bit more at 47,500, cooling capacity full 4 ton

    single stage Tranes on low with full airflow run 70% sensible. The lower the sensible the more latent which is humidity removal. This means GALLONS more water out of the air in a typical day than the 16i on low most of the time. The 16i on high is 73% sensible at ARI conditions.

    I'm just not sold on the 16i.

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