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  1. #53
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    451
    Quote Originally Posted by bob hubbard View Post
    This guy is doin what alot of homeowners are doing ! And he will get it installed one way or another ! If they couldnt get it installed they wouldnt be internet sales ! I have seen this in my area and he can save alot of money ! Last one I saw the guy saved a $ 1000 dollars . If everyone is against it why not post the companys names here and put some pressure on the manufactures selling to them ? Otherwise your just tooting your own horn with useless opinions !
    I agree with you that he is saving money upfront, but only because of the labor burden. The problem I see is the OP wants to save money with an internet purchase. He is not saving money because there is a huge difference between ebay and what a contractor would sell the unit for. He is saving because he is having the work done on the side or with a flyby night outfit. The hack probably can't or just won't pick up a furnace at a warehouse, so he tells HO to "just buy it online and have it delivered."

    This stuff goes on all the time just as you have stated, but this guy stated in his first post he knew he was going to get ripped for bringing this up. I'm just saying he shouldn't act so surprised that only hacks show up to do his work. It's what he is willing to pay for! I find it hard to believe with how big NYC is there isn't at least a handful of decent companies.
    Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes...that way you are a mile from them and have their shoes

  2. #54
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    cincinnati ohio
    Posts
    2,024

    internet sales

    I cant really say what I would like to because of pricing but you missed my point prolly because I wasnt clear . I installed a internet sale for a friend he bought down in flordia . Goodman equipment , I saw the invoice and he bought the system at the same price as a contractor does and the shippng to ohio was under 300 . He paid a company ( myself ) by the hour to do the install . The said home owner saved a grand by internet sales & picking up the equipment . Tring to say only hacks or side jobs are the only way the equipment gets installed is simpley untrue . The internet sales are only going to get stronger untill some pressure is put on the seller ! This will just get bigger and better for the homeowner . You might hide your head in the sand or try to scare off a few on here by saying the word hack but I see alot of dollar to be made on sales and if its not controlled it will only get worse . You may not like the new rules but its all part of the game we all play . He who makes the most money wins .
    My avatar is a picture of a Goodman Silencer .....These were commonly used in Goodman country ....Photos by hvac tech ( PaysonHVAC )

  3. #55
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    451
    Quote Originally Posted by bob hubbard View Post
    I cant really say what I would like to because of pricing but you missed my point prolly because I wasnt clear . I installed a internet sale for a friend he bought down in flordia . Goodman equipment , I saw the invoice and he bought the system at the same price as a contractor does and the shippng to ohio was under 300 . He paid a company ( myself ) by the hour to do the install . The said home owner saved a grand by internet sales & picking up the equipment . Tring to say only hacks or side jobs are the only way the equipment gets installed is simpley untrue . The
    internet sales are only going to get stronger untill some pressure is put on the seller ! This will just get bigger and better for the homeowner . You might hide your head in the sand or try to scare off a few on here by saying the word hack but I see alot of dollar to be made on sales and if its not controlled it will only get worse . You may not like the new rules but its all part of the game we all play . He who makes the most money wins .
    I agree with you.
    Installing for a friend is totally different than purchasing equipment and trying to find someone reputable to do it. After all if you were installing for a friend i doubt he/she would need advice from here.
    I wasn't just throwing the word "hack" around to scare anyone. This is what the OP was referring to:

    Quote Originally Posted by jrongo View Post
    As for getting a pro to do the job, until I find an installer that is going to prove to me that he (or she) is going to install what is best from my home, what’s the point? If “part swappers” continue to be the norm in my area of Long Island then I will continue to try to put as much control in my hands as possible.
    Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes...that way you are a mile from them and have their shoes

  4. #56
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Eastern PA
    Posts
    68,944
    Quote Originally Posted by gary_g View Post
    I would still eat the steak.
    Just as you will also eat any problems that occur from equipment that you have directly purchased.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  5. #57
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    352

    Online sales

    Most of the major air conditioning manufacturers have some sort of "task force" to limit the sell of their products online. They do this because it is hurting them as well as the us. They get lawyers involved and for every one they stop two more pop up, but this helps in the effort. The lawyer fees are taken away from their profits or they are passed on to the little guy (us.) This is normal business. The manufacturer also will not sell to the people that sell them online if they know about it. (Janitrash could care less.) The two exceptions to rule are Janitrash and used equipment. I personally have no problem with these items being sold on the net because they are the bottom of the barrel, in the publics eyes. If you have a customer that is willing to buy equipment off the net, or used equipment, or stolen equipment, these aren't good customers anyway. These customers are trash, and in most cases the finished system that they have matches. These are the bottom feeders. Just like competing with the one truckers and sidejobbers. These people get exactly what they paid for. If the average A/C company bends to that level, we are no better than they are.

  6. #58
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Near Chicago, IL
    Posts
    3,317
    The internet is not going away.

    There will always be people out there that believe they are getting a deal sourcing things like HVAC equipment on the internet. I have looked at some of those places, and their "deal" is retail pricing.

    Unfortunately, there is no guarantee that purchasing equipment through "proper channels" will ensure a matching system or proper installation. This will not change until there are enforceable minimum standards for the HVAC industry.

    Even worse, just as consumers want to save a buck, some employers want to cheat those customers and charge enough money to "do it right" and still cut every corner they can to maximize profits (the "It only has to last a year" mentality). Those companies give this whole industry a bad name.

    This residential forum and the Wall of Shame are full of examples.

    As long as those bad apples exist, someone is gonna try the DIY route and/or sub out the "labor" portion of the job.

    This is because the public views HVAC as labor, not a skilled profession. Job titles like "HVAC installer" just beat the point home even further. Does a forum exist where people can shop doctors or lawyers for the lowest bid?

    I still fail to see the problem with installing equipment someone else provides...

    • Charge your normal rate

    • Include your normal markup

    • Install it properly, just like you are providing it

    • If it is new equipment, it will turn on (shouldn't be DOA)

    • Warranty your work, which will be a non issue if you do the work professionally

    • Provide service on the equipment at your normal rate and reimburse customers for the parts if you get credit for them


    I see no downside to this. The customer thinks they saved some money, and the contractor still gets some work. It parallels the commercial side where retailers become "dealers" for equipment, cutting the equipment sales from the bid.

    Someone else will do it if you refuse.

    Maybe I am just stupid, though.

  7. #59
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    352

    Online A/C

    If you are going to sell labor and install equipment that you don't provide, the only one right way to price it. Take your normal rate to install say a 3 ton condenser. This should be your sale price, and back out your equipment cost (because you didn't buy it.) The number left over is your price for so called "day labor." This is the right way to do it. In my opinion if you do anything else you are hurting the entire industry.

  8. #60
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    68,038
    HVAC is not being treated different then the medical field.

    http://www.talktoadoctor.co.uk/writedoctors.aspx
    Contractor locator map

    How-to-apply-for-Professional

    How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?

  9. #61
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    352
    On that is a website for a doctor in the UK. 19.95 euro is like 30 USD a reply. I see the two as similar fields. You can gain great knowledge about how to operate on yourself, maybe Rambo can benefit from this. The same end result......you have 2 stories so you need a 5 ton.

  10. #62
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    68,038
    Point was, everything is being effected by the internet.
    Medical consultations on line.
    HVAC equipment being sold on line.
    Medications are sold on line.
    Contractor locator map

    How-to-apply-for-Professional

    How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?

  11. #63
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    352
    I couldn't agree more. The actual process of buying on the net is a good thing. I promotes a competitve market and readily available information. It seems that the company, in any field, on the up and up would benefit from it. The informed consumer should be one of you best customers.

  12. #64
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    68,038
    This site does promote informing customers.

    Not DIY though.
    Contractor locator map

    How-to-apply-for-Professional

    How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?

  13. #65
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Trabuco Canyon, CA.
    Posts
    27

    Buying equipment online

    Forget about it

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