Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 14 to 23 of 23

Thread: Westinghouse IQ

  1. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    1,253
    Quote Originally Posted by TMH58 View Post
    Most of the newer and affordable inverter technology is coming from China. Broad Ocean is one of those manufacturers. Much more affordable than Emerson, GE. Pansonic has made big improvements to their rotary compressors and have been very reliable in the new IQ system. And as far as Nordyne goes, they have won top innovative awards in this respect and when the heat pump comes out, it will probably do the same. "Working out the bugs" as you put it is what got us to the moon and back. I cannot think of any other manufacturer that has the amount of technical support, accessability and willingness to help the guy in the field that they have.
    I'm not questioning that Nordyne is doing a good or even great job. I have never seen their product. They are leading a charge that I think most US based manufacturers will eventually follow. But, they are re-inventing what has and is currently on the market from several different manufacturers. No need to wait on Nordyne to bring out a product (that may or may not have some bugs) when that product is currently available in the market place.

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Somewhere in the midwest
    Posts
    405
    Touche.
    Sound installation practices is the key to success. Equipment is only as good as the person installing it.

    If I can't fix it, it ain't broke.

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    141
    Quote Originally Posted by mchild View Post
    Daikin VRV-S, Mitsubishi City Multi, Sanyo Eco-i Mini, maybe Fujitsu. These are NOT "mini-splits" but full split systems.
    Sounds great. Anybody with any real world experience in putting in a system like this?

    How expensive? Not real dollars since not allowed - how about % more or less than conventional system.

    Would they work dual fuel?

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    1,253
    Quote Originally Posted by jkish View Post
    Sounds great. Anybody with any real world experience in putting in a system like this?

    How expensive? Not real dollars since not allowed - how about % more or less than conventional system.

    Would they work dual fuel?
    Currently, I have two systems - one up and one down.

    Based on conversations with my contractor the installed price for a 4-ton Daikin should be about the same as two 2-ton York high SEER units with VS air handlers and such. We will be keeping the existing ducting and modifying it to accept the new small Daikin air handlers. The second story unit will be a single 2-ton air handler while on the first floor we are going to split the ducting into two sections (current air handler has ducts running in opposite directions from the plenum) and have a zone for the front of the house and one for the back. Each of those two zones will use a 1.5-ton air handler. Thus, there will be three zones using the existing ducting with very minimal rework required.

    As you can see I will have a total of 5-tons of indoor units connected to the one 4-ton outdoor unit. At design temp of 10* it will provide about 38,000 BTUs of heat. This output very nearly carries my load so each air handler will have a small strip heater for a little bit of supplemental on the really cold days. But, even more important, the output of the outdoor unit will be sent to the indoor units that need it in the amount needed.

    My home has a heat load of 9K BTU on the second floor and 36K on the first. The cooling load is 17K up and 13K down (sensible) and a total cooling load of 35K latent and sensible.

    If I used York (or any other typical) heat pump I would probably settle on two units 2-tons each (no way to do zoning and tie the first and second floor ducting together and use one system). The second floor unit would meet the cooling load, but would be oversized on the heating capacity. For the first floor unit, too much cooling capacity (probably only run in first stage) and not enough heat capacity. At design temps it would only put out 14K BTUs. Thus, a big need for supplemental heat. Either I go cheap and put in strip heat and pay a lot every winter or spend a lot more up front for some other method of providing supplemental heat on the first floor.

    With the Daikin system it will provide the amount of refrigerant where needed when needed. It will provide more BTUs than similar nominal capacity typical
    systems, it will do it more efficiently, and very quietly. There will be one control system that will be tucked away in the first floor utility closet. Each zone will have a small (match book sized) temp sensor. Very clean install.

    Bob Villa's TV show Home again featured a Mitsu system a few weeks ago on a renovation project they were doing. Not sure if you can watch that on DIY Nerwork web site.

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    florida
    Posts
    21

    percent

    double

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    141
    Quote Originally Posted by mchild View Post
    Currently, I have two systems - one up and one down.

    Based on conversations with my contractor the installed price for a 4-ton Daikin should be about the same as two 2-ton York high SEER units with VS air handlers and such.
    What kind of system(s) are you replacing? Furnace + AC?

    What led you to pick the Daikin system vs. the others?

    Any expected energy savings estimates?

    I guess this project is to be completed in the near future?

    I will be keenly interesting in hearing about the results.

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    1,253
    Quote Originally Posted by jkish View Post
    What kind of system(s) are you replacing? Furnace + AC?

    What led you to pick the Daikin system vs. the others?

    Any expected energy savings estimates?

    I guess this project is to be completed in the near future?

    I will be keenly interesting in hearing about the results.

    So many questions . . . a few answers.

    The second floor system is a 3-ton 10 SEER heat pump that has had a very short, but rough, life. Compressor pulls fairly high amps. The first floor system is a 96K BTU (net) oil furnace with a 2.5-ton a/c (10 SEER). As you can see I have waaaayyy too much heat and too much cooling also. Even at design temp the oil furnace only runs for about 16 minutes at a time. The heat exchanger is just getting warmed up went it shuts back down on typical cycle. Has to be wasting a lot of fuel oil.

    With 5.5-tons of cooling, when I need about 3.25-tons, it does a pretty lousy job of controlling humidity. It is a constant struggle between being too humid and too cold. During the shoulder season it is never comfortable.

    While I can't say what the energy savings is going to be, but I know I will have some. The bigger issue is comfort. I know, without a doubt, that the new system will provide unmatched comfort.

    These systems do not have SEER ratings as there are so many combinations of indoor units. Therefore, comparing COP (in both heating and cooling) brings it back to apples to apples. When you connect more than 100% of indoor units the energy consumption drops. Thus, while the the rated COP in heat mode is 4.11 with 130% connection it is still 3.63 at 10*F (in comparison my 3-ton heat pump has a "rated" COP of 1.7 - I'm sure it is less than that). When operating in part load situations the COP goes even higher, pushing up over 5.0. There are no published technical specs on part load operation. Even assuming my oil furnace is actually giving me the rated output (probably closer to 60% not the rated 81% efficient), at today's prices for oil it costs nearly $3.00 to produce 100K BTUs. At design temps the Daikin system will cost about $1.10 for 100K (including indoor unit fans @ .1271 cents per KW).

    I first was considering a 5-ton Sanyo system as it gives more heat and reliance of supplemental would be very, very little. Cost for that system is coming in about 35% higher than the Daikin system. No other manufactures offers a 5-ton system here in the US (they all offer them in other countries).

    Wanting to get the system installed within the next 6 weeks.

    Where do you live and what is your real heat loss.

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    141
    Quote Originally Posted by mchild View Post
    So many questions . . . a few answers.

    Where do you live and what is your real heat loss.
    Sorry about bombing you with questions - this is the first I have heard about this kind of system being installed and just wanted to get up to speed with all of the parameters involved in what you are doing.

    I have two systems: 1st floor - 120K 80% BTU gas furnace with 5 ton 10 SEER AC, 2nd Floor 60K BTU gas furnace with 3 ton 10 SEER AC. There is also a terrace level with a 2.5 ton 10 SEER Heat Pump.

    I licensed a copy of HVAC calc and calculated the heat loss on the 1st floor at 55K BTUs and the 2nd floor at 21K BTUs. The 1st Floor Heat gain is 39K BTUs (36K sensible), 2nd floor heat gain at 18K (16.5K sensible).

    Like you, we have way too much heat and maybe a little bit too much cooling. The house heats and cools fine, but would be more comfortable with smoother cycling and possibly some zoning.

    My original plan was to upgrade to a dual fuel system with a 16 SEER HP and high efficiency furnace. After seeing that variable speed compressors were on the horizon, I decided to wait until I could install a system using that technology. My system is about 7 years old so there isn't any immediate reason to change.

    Looking at some of the specs of these systems you mentioned, it seems that I might be able to get away without the gas furnace being part of the system at all since we're in the Atlanta area and these units seem to have a great ability to produce quite a high percentage of their rated output at pretty low temperatures. I was just looking at the new Mitsu City Multi H2i models that are amazing in that respect.

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    1,253
    Quote Originally Posted by jkish View Post
    Sorry about bombing you with questions - this is the first I have heard about this kind of system being installed and just wanted to get up to speed with all of the parameters involved in what you are doing.

    I have two systems: 1st floor - 120K 80% BTU gas furnace with 5 ton 10 SEER AC, 2nd Floor 60K BTU gas furnace with 3 ton 10 SEER AC. There is also a terrace level with a 2.5 ton 10 SEER Heat Pump.

    I licensed a copy of HVAC calc and calculated the heat loss on the 1st floor at 55K BTUs and the 2nd floor at 21K BTUs. The 1st Floor Heat gain is 39K BTUs (36K sensible), 2nd floor heat gain at 18K (16.5K sensible).

    Like you, we have way too much heat and maybe a little bit too much cooling. The house heats and cools fine, but would be more comfortable with smoother cycling and possibly some zoning.

    My original plan was to upgrade to a dual fuel system with a 16 SEER HP and high efficiency furnace. After seeing that variable speed compressors were on the horizon, I decided to wait until I could install a system using that technology. My system is about 7 years old so there isn't any immediate reason to change.

    Looking at some of the specs of these systems you mentioned, it seems that I might be able to get away without the gas furnace being part of the system at all since we're in the Atlanta area and these units seem to have a great ability to produce quite a high percentage of their rated output at pretty low temperatures. I was just looking at the new Mitsu City Multi H2i models that are amazing in that respect.

    Since you have time you may want to have a blower door test done to determine the one number in your gain/loss calc that you had to somewhat guess at. Infiltration will have a huge impact on your real world heat use. The other thing you may want to do is test your calculated results by monitoring your actual run time during design conditions.

    I found that my cooling load was fairly close to the total calc number, but the spread between the first and second floor was rather different when I actually monitored run time. My heating load was actually smaller than the calc number (45K vs 66K for 3,100 sf) because of the infiltration number - I had estimated way too high because I assumed that my 1889 farm house was real leaky. For my cooling load the second floor unit provides about 60% of the total cooling and the first floor heat source provides about 80% of the total heat requirement.

    The blower door test will help you see where you could make cost effective changes that would reduce heating and cooling loads permanently. Also, before you replace any systems, correct problems with your duct work. This will also help with the run time tests. If you have air leaking into an unconditioned attic/crawl space, then fixing that will reduce the actual amount of heat and cool that you will need (could be significant). Also, make sure you have acceptable ESP, most of these air handlers need reasonably low ESP (they have high ESP units, but they are typically on the larger end of the capacity range and use more energy). Good news is if you currently have somewhat high ESP, most of these air handlers require less air flow, and if they are smaller than you have now, then you may be in good shape in that regard.

    The H2i is very interesting and will be more expensive. It will also require 3 phase electric. For single phase electric you will need to be at 5-tons or less.

    Your conclusion on not needing limited supplemental heat is correct and not having to have a substantial secondary heat source will reduce your up front equipment costs and justify a high price tag for one of these units.

    Don't worry about the questions - I was just funnin' with ya.

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    141
    Quote Originally Posted by mchild View Post
    Since you have time you may want to have a blower door test done to determine the one number in your gain/loss calc that you had to somewhat guess at. Infiltration will have a huge impact on your real world heat use. The other thing you may want to do is test your calculated results by monitoring your actual run time during design conditions.
    I had a blower door test and duct leakage test done about 18 months ago. The house tested at .59 ACHnat and the duct test showed 27% leakage. I've made several suggested changes - the biggest impact seemed to be from sealing the duct boots to the sheetrock. There were some big gaps there. I also sealed lighting cans in the upstairs ceiling that also had gaps around the bezels, fixed up some knee walls, sealed the attic hatch and other misc infiltration sites.

    A some point, I'll go back and test again, but heating and cooling energy usage is down about 25% on a per degree day basis over the last year.

    Meanwhile, I'm just trying to stay abreast of the latest technology so I'll be (somewhat) informed when I'm ready to take the next step.

    I'll be looking forward to hearing your experience and findings from your upgrade.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Comfortech Show Promo Image

Related Forums

Plumbing Talks | Contractor Magazine
Forums | Electrical Construction & Maintenance (EC&M) Magazine
Comfortech365 Virtual Event