Operating cost comparison......hot water

[jeremy-lvhm]

The amount of heat you loose through the boiler insulation, is also directly related to the temp you maintain in the boiler.

Whens the last time you saw a resi water heater maintaining 160 or 180* water.

Electric can be cheaper depending on the spread between oil cost and electric cost.
But electric is going to go up a lot when the deregulation takes effect.

Don't forget. When they are allowed to make profit on the electric, not only will you pay for that % increase, you will also be paying tax on that increase.

Keep the indirect handy!

My point exactly. We have to keep our boilers fired up pretty toasty to keep us supplied with a decent amount of hot water. And we lose alot of heat into the house during this process. But so many people just seem to look at one thing. How much does it cost to burn the fuel. I would even be willing to bet that I can reduce my cost even more by shutting the water heater off during the day when I'm not using any water. Heck you could probably shut the water heater off in the morning before or right after taking showers and not let it ever fire up to recover and let it off all day until later and save a bunch by just delaying the recovery from the morning. I only have 2 people in my house so its not a big deal to me. I just think there are alot of options and right now keeping my boiler stoked up is costing me more than needed.

Hey I never said this was a fix all. I just think for right now with the cost of oil there is a slightly better way. I don't plan on ripping my indirect out of the boiler. Heck I'm the one that hooked it up in the first place. I have talked about this with quite a few people in the industry and everyone agrees that right now oil isn't the best choice. But there are some die hard people on here that think it's the only way. Personally if I had the money to buy my propane tank I would throw a Rinnai up on the wall and be done with it. That to me makes more sense than anything. But until I put up my addition I don't plan on burying a propane tank just yet.

[beenthere]

What size indirect do you have.

[jeremy-lvhm]

What size indirect do you have.

Slant Crap Boiler w / 3.2 GPM Coil. Why do you ask? You can drop me an email if you want.

[beenthere]

Ah, a tankless coil.

They bite period.

I thought you had an indirect, my mistake.

I was going to say, that with an indirect, you can lower your boilers min water temp, and still have better frecovery then an electric, and not lose as much heat to the basement or up the chimney.

In the case of a tankless coil, electric water heater is almost always cheaper.

Nothing wrong with Slantfin though.

[jeremy-lvhm]

Ah, a tankless coil.

They bite period.

I thought you had an indirect, my mistake.


Nothing wrong with Slantfin though.

Guess it's more my mistake than anything. I didn't know there was much of a difference between an indirect setup and a tank less coil. I think the coil works well. Never ran out of hot water. My buddy has a household of 3 and he's never had a problem as well. What makes indirect so much better?

As far as slant fin. Yeach. If it wouldn't have been like a year old when I moved it I would have tore it out. I prefer a nice new yorker. This thing is crazy over sized for my house too. I just noticed now actually that you asked the question and I had to look at the rating. I did my heat load calc a few weeks ago to size my AC and this boiler is about 3 times bigger than what I need. Guess I'll have to down fire it a bit more than spec.

[skippedover]

'Lectric cheaper to install for sure but an indirect will still beat and electric water heater for cost of operation, unless the electric is somewhere where the cost of a KW is less than a dime. How about a nice geothermal system with desuperheaters?

[beenthere]

When we say indirect.
We're refering to a tank that is hooked to the boiler, and uses the boiler to heat it.
Those tanks are insulated to the point that they only lose about 1/2*F and hour.
Which means if you go away for the weekend, It only has to run the boiler once about every 20 hours to maintain its temp.

You don't have to maintain as high of a water temp in the boiler.

[dh1052002]

propane isn't all that bad if u find the right price
91k btu at 92%=83720btu/gallon

just paid 2.22/gallon=26.52/million btu

oil at 3.25/gal with 83% eff=27.19/million btu

efficiency is key!!

[casturbo]

Guess it's more my mistake than anything. I didn't know there was much of a difference between an indirect setup and a tank less coil. I think the coil works well. Never ran out of hot water. My buddy has a household of 3 and he's never had a problem as well. What makes indirect so much better?

BIG difference between tankless coil and indirect....as in the tankless coil being the least efficient way to make hot water, the indirect the most efficient. Easy to remember that way.

...As far as slant fin. Yeach. If it wouldn't have been like a year old when I moved it I would have tore it out. I prefer a nice new yorker. This thing is crazy over sized for my house too. I just noticed now actually that you asked the question and I had to look at the rating. I did my heat load calc a few weeks ago to size my AC and this boiler is about 3 times bigger than what I need. Guess I'll have to down fire it a bit more than spec.

SlantFin boiler?....like the Liberty model, or older than that? I've worked on plenty, the Liberty runs fine. And as you know, they're not the most efficient, especially with a tankless. And being your boiler is oversized is not helping matters either. Downfire it some, save some oil. Install an indirect hot water tank and put an outdoor reset control or a HeatManager on it to save even more.

[jeremy-lvhm]

BIG difference between tankless coil and indirect....as in the tankless coil being the least efficient way to make hot water, the indirect the most efficient. Easy to remember that way.



SlantFin boiler?....like the Liberty model, or older than that? I've worked on plenty, the Liberty runs fine. And as you know, they're not the most efficient, especially with a tankless. And being your boiler is oversized is not helping matters either. Downfire it some, save some oil. Install an indirect hot water tank and put an outdoor reset control or a HeatManager on it to save even more.

You know I was looking for more of a fact that just remember it this way because I say so. But what beenthere says makes a little sense to me except for the fact that your still losing heat out of your boiler even with the indirect tank. Indirect setups do not come cheap either though so if you want to bark about costs to the customer vs savings I cant see, at this point in time, how much better it might be. At least at my electric rate anyway.

Yes its a liberty and your right, it isn't that bad. I'm just not the biggest fan of sectional boilers. Never was. And the slant fin name always makes me think that they are sold at Home Depot so I donut give them alot of respect for doing that. It has done me well and like I said it was new when I got here so I can't complain. I never really realized how over sized it was unit tonight like I said because I just did my heat loss calc this past month. I'll down fire it for sure. Wouldn't be the first time I down fired an oil burner out of spec. I guess the good thing is that it should be more than big enough to handle my addition one day. Maybe even the garage too. lol. Who knows. One day when I put the propane tank in for my stove I may just switch over to gas furnaces to go with my heat pump. It would be worth it to me just to have one less oil burner to clean.

[beenthere]

Got a couple indirects on cold fire boilers.
Don't 100% recomend it though.

[jeremy-lvhm]

Got a couple indirects on cold fire boilers.
Don't 100% recomend it though.

Hey I think nowadays we need to do what makes the bills go down. Whatever it takes. More and more I'm thinking of just ripping out the oil and installing a gas furnace with my heat pump along with a rinnai tank less. First of all my aggravation of cleaning oil will go away. I'll save alot of room in my basement. And I can have a 92 plus efficient unit. I'm in need of a new oil tank anyway so why waste the money. Scrap metal is pretty high so I'll subsidize my new units will all the scrap piping and copper from the convector's. LOL

Right now I'm installing an electric HWH and running it off of a relay so I can shut it down during the day.

[dan sw fl]

Hey I think nowadays we need to do what makes the bills go down. Whatever it takes.

More and more I'm thinking of just ripping out the oil and
installing a gas furnace with my heat pump along with a rinnai tank less.

And I can have a 92 plus efficient unit.

Right now I'm installing an electric HWH and
running it off of a relay so I can shut it down during the day.

One should install a heat pump
(and time-of-day use electric rates, if appropriate )
to heat the hot water to save > 60% ( $150 / year) of the energy.

http://www.nyletherm.com/waterheating.htm

The relay will save ~ $10 per year.
... seems like the pay-back periods might be 2 to 6 years.

40 --- Gallons / day
30 --- days /month
---
1200 --- Gallons / month
8.3 --- lbs / gallon
9960 --- lbs / month
---
115 --- HW Temp
50 --- Water In
65 --- dT
---
647400 --- BTUs/ Month
3412 --- BTUs/ kW
189.7 --- kW / month
---
0.11 --- $/kW
$20.87 --- $ to heat hot water / month
$250.46 --- $ to heat hot water / month
60% ---
$150.28 --- Savings/ year with heat pump
---
4.0% --- Savings for use of relay during daytime
$0.83 --- $ Savings / month
$10.02 --- $ Savings / year