Operating cost comparison......hot water

[im4snow2000]

Hope this is the right forum. I have a neighbor with an oil boiler because he has some hot water baseboard heat. Currently his domestic hot water is "driven" by an indirect hot water tank off the boiler.

Given oil's recent prices, he's considering switching just the domestic hot water to either electric or propane (he has propane at the property for a pool and cooktop in the kitchen).

Is there a relatively straight forward formula to compare the cost of heating a gal of water for elec vs propane vs oil??? I know oil will generate 140k BTU's per gal, propane 91k btu's per gal, and it takes 3412kWh of electricity to get to one BTU.

I'd be interested in seeing the formula to compare the costs differences for 1 gal of hot water. If necessary, I'd assume the oil burner at 80%. Not sure what the typical tank electric or propane hot water heater efficiency is.

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

[uncle buck]

I just got an "$800" oil bill and i can sympathize Your neighbor should consider a "RINNAI" propane fired Tankless water heater
you and him should check out the website called "www.foreverhotwater.com" these are very efficient hot water heaters they are available in natural gas and propane.
as for the boiler if it has a tankless coil in it it is a recipe for more oil consumption. with oil this expensive everyone should have a crown freeport boiler.. Crown Freeport "3" pass heat exchanger low mass cast iron save more $$$$ on oil bill crown freeports are designed to be a "COLD-START" boiler as per the crown reps..

[Moose]

Have you (he) considered solar? The other issue is the building envelope - upgrade that & you will reduce the heating load substantially. Insulation... you pay once. Fuel you pay forever.

[karsthuntr]

http://www.warmair.net/html/fuel_cost_comparisons.htm

Just enter the cost of each.


And it is 3.41 btu per watt.

[dan sw fl]

Is there a relatively straight forward formula to compare the cost of heating a gal of water for elec vs propane vs oil??? I know oil will generate 140k BTU's per gal, propane 91k btu's per gal, and it
... one BTU.

I'd be interested in seeing the formula to compare the costs differences for 1 gal of hot water. If necessary, I'd assume the oil burner at 80%.

Cost to heat 100 gallons * 50'F = 41,500 BTU
$1.96 for electric at $0.15 per kWh
$1.20 for oil at $3.00 per gallon


830 lb 50 F = 41,500 BTU

3,413 Btu/ kw
12.16 kW
$0.15 $ /kw
0.93 Efficiency
$1.96

104,000 130,000
0.8 Efficiency
0.399 Gal
$3.00 /gal
$1.20

[casturbo]

Huh?....removing a high efficiency big $$$ indirect hot water maker and install a 'toy' electric element tank instead? Electric is the WORST way to make hot water, your neighbor should be glad he's got what he has already.

[bobb25]

An indirect water heater will give you almost infinite hot water. An electric water heater will give you hot water for about 30 to 45 minutes and take about 2 hours to recover.

If your "neighbor" wants to check on the cost, go to the Penn State energy calculator: http://energy.cas.psu.edu/energyselector/

Or do my version:
Comparing different heater operating costs:
1. Choose one or more energy source(s).
2. Determine the current price of each energy you chose.
3. Choose two or more different heater models.
4. Determine the efficiency of each model.

For each unit:
5. Multiply the efficiency times the energy’s gross BTUs to determine net BTUs.
Note: Net BTUs are how much heat you actually get out of the heater.
6. Divide net BTUs into 1,000,000 to determine how many Units of Measure you need.
Note: 1,000,000 is just a common denominator, you can use any number you like.
7. Multiply the Units of Measure times the Energy Cost
8. Compare the results.

[jeremy-lvhm]

Huh?....removing a high efficiency big $$$ indirect hot water maker and install a 'toy' electric element tank instead? Electric is the WORST way to make hot water, your neighbor should be glad he's got what he has already.

high efficiency? how is it efficient to burn oil at 3.50 a gallon on an 80 percent boiler??? I'm sorry but my electric is only .10 per kw hour and I'll be joining the ranks of putting an electric HWH back in my house and using it when oil is high and switching to oil IF it ever goes low again. I'm also putting in a high efficiency heat pump too. Don't tell me your like my neighbor and think indirect heaters are FREE because your heating the boiler for heat anyway. LOL

I just did the numbers according to dans caclualations and I came up with 1.40 oil and 1.30 electric for my costs right now. Thats a no brainer in my book. Oil prices are getting out of control.

[casturbo]

Double check your electric rate you pay....electric bills are loaded with added costs. My electric bill has one cost for generation charge, one for distribution, and then at least 5 other tidbit costs to add up to 18.6 cents per kwHr.

Take your last months bill and divide cost by the total kwhr used, that is the true rate you're paying.

And btw, electric tanks will rot out lonnngggg before the oil-powered tank is at half its life. Electric tanks need element changes whereas as indirect tank does not. Hmmmph, oil is cheaper, as always.

[bobb25]

high efficiency? how is it efficient to burn oil at 3.50 a gallon on an 80 percent boiler??? I'm sorry but my electric is only .10 per kw hour and I'll be joining the ranks of putting an electric HWH back in my house and using it when oil is high and switching to oil IF it ever goes low again. I'm also putting in a high efficiency heat pump too. Don't tell me your like my neighbor and think indirect heaters are FREE because your heating the boiler for heat anyway. LOL

I just did the numbers according to dans calculations and I came up with 1.40 oil and 1.30 electric for my costs right now. Thats a no brainer in my book. Oil prices are getting out of control.

If you use those prices and 80% oil efficiency, you'd actually save about $2 after you've used 1,000,000 btus.

140,000 btus x 80% = 112,000 btus divided into 1,000,000 btus = 8.93 x $3.50 = $31.255
3,412 btus x 100% = 3,412 btus divided into 1,000,000 btus = 293.08 x $0.10 = $29.308

Lots of people pay less for oil, and more for electric. Around us today, oil can be bought for about $3.27 a gallon. Boiler efficiency also varies, but 83% is more in line.

Other intangible factors to consider are electric water heaters have greater standby loss, you still must keep a boiler on, so there would be less winter on/off cycles and higher seasonal efficiency, oil prices fluctuate, and can go down, electric rarely goes down, you can shop around for best oil price. These all must be considered.

140,000 btus x 83% = 116,200 btus divided into 1,000,000 btus = 8.61 x $3.27 = $28.15

[dan sw fl]

Hope this is the right forum.

Given oil's recent prices, he's considering switching just the domestic hot water to either electric or propane (he has propane at the property for a pool and cooktop in the kitchen).

One should consider a heat pump for late spring to mid-fall
pool heating in PA (perhaps ~ 7 + month swim season)

C.O.P. > 4 at > 45'F ( 5.7 @ 80'F)

http://www.aquathermheatpumps.com/titanium_at1200.htm

[uncle buck]

at todays oil prices all those
"OIL-HEAT-TECHNICIANS" who "BAD-MOUTH" "LOW-MASS-BOILERS" are going to have to do some serious soul searching.. How about a
"SYSTEM-2000" boiler for heat only delete the domestic heat exchanger its a cold start boiler anyway only runs on a call for heat up to temperature in 90 to 120 seconds and...... a "RINNAI" for domestic hot water

[uncle buck]

standard single pass boilers hold more water in the heat exchanger take much longer to reach internal temperature and are more labor intensive to clean.. even when oil was much less $$$$ it was always a wise choice for a low mass boiler example "CROWN-FREEPORT" as the # "1" choice for those wanting a "CAST-IRON-BOILER" a "BIASI" as the #"2" choice in Cast iron...... for serious $$$$$ savings a "EK-system-2000"
"WHY" heat up a large volumn of water to circulate a small amount through a base-board system ?????

[beenthere]

Your friend can have an electric water heater piped up with the indirect.
If its piped up right. When the electric rate goes up, he can use the electric water heater as a natural tempering tank.
If oil becomes more expensive again later, he can just turn the EWH back on, and open the appropriate valves.

[jeremy-lvhm]

Double check your electric rate you pay....electric bills are loaded with added costs. My electric bill has one cost for generation charge, one for distribution, and then at least 5 other tidbit costs to add up to 18.6 cents per kwHr.

Take your last months bill and divide cost by the total kwhr used, that is the true rate you're paying.

And btw, electric tanks will rot out lonnngggg before the oil-powered tank is at half its life. Electric tanks need element changes whereas as indirect tank does not. Hmmmph, oil is cheaper, as always.

Ummm Skippy too dumb to figure out generation, delivery, charges to electric bill. YES my delivered electric averages .10 per kw hour (regulation at work). Even when PA is deregulated in two years I expect oil to be at about 5 buck by then at this rate so I'm not concerned.

Electric tanks rot out yes...change your anode rod every few years and it won't if our that concerned. We had a customer years ago that did that and he had his water heater like 30 years. I've had water heaters last me 20 plus years as well. I'll take the hit if I'm saving money. And you act like oil is maintenance free. LOL. Please just stop. Oil needs to be cleaned once a year. Indirect tanks need acid washes more often than not because people are too stupid to soften their water and even if they do you still get scale buildup.

I've been doing this long enough. I think I have a bit of a grip on the situation. Look at the extra cooling load alone in the summer time for running your hot a$$ boiler to make hot water. Theres alot of things to take into consideration. Hey I'm obviously not against indirect heaters since I ripped my old HWH out about 3 years ago and hooked the coil up to begin with. Oil was about 1.25 a gallon then too!!

[jeremy-lvhm]

If you use those prices and 80% oil efficiency, you'd actually save about $2 after you've used 1,000,000 btus.

140,000 btus x 80% = 112,000 btus divided into 1,000,000 btus = 8.93 x $3.50 = $31.255
3,412 btus x 100% = 3,412 btus divided into 1,000,000 btus = 293.08 x $0.10 = $29.308

Lots of people pay less for oil, and more for electric. Around us today, oil can be bought for about $3.27 a gallon. Boiler efficiency also varies, but 83% is more in line.

Other intangible factors to consider are electric water heaters have greater standby loss, you still must keep a boiler on, so there would be less winter on/off cycles and higher seasonal efficiency, oil prices fluctuate, and can go down, electric rarely goes down, you can shop around for best oil price. These all must be considered.

140,000 btus x 83% = 116,200 btus divided into 1,000,000 btus = 8.61 x $3.27 = $28.15

I haven't seen oil go down in about two years. And lately it's been trending alot higher in the summer that it should. Also I find it hard to believe that my sweaty hot boiler has good stand by loss. You have to keep your boiler sitting at 140-160 to keep yourself in hot water and that boiler is almost always hot to the touch. I think there are alot of things to take into consideration. Cooling load on the hot sweaty boiler. Maintenance.

[flange]

Wow.......there seems to be a lot of information tossed around, but some is good and some is horrible. There are simple minded people who cannot see the light of day. A properly tuned oil burner is not that expensive to run. You all can calculate the numbers via the links posted. While water source is definately more efficient for heating if available, the original question was about changing from an indirect loop off a boiler to an electric water heater. Most oil boilers are not cold fired.....yet for obvious reasons I think. So, we have a constant availabiltiy to make hot water. The indirects are typically stainless steel and last a lifetime. They are very well insulated. It is already in place and being used. Recovery rates if sized correctly are superior to electric water heaters. Now if we consider first cost to install, power consumption, replacement costs, and standby losses, there is no way we are at the point of that being better than an indirect. Sorry. Look at lifecycle costs, not just your kw rate. Even if you get a hack to install it, with electric feeders, cost of heater, labor and materials it has got to cost roughly 150 bucks a year for the installed product on top of the utility bill. Think again.

[beenthere]

Oil at $5.00 a gal 80% eff, is cheaper then electric at 100% eff at $0.16 a KWH

In you install an electric water heater to save on operating cost, keep the indirect usable.

[bobb25]

I haven't seen oil go down in about two years. And lately it's been trending alot higher in the summer that it should. Also I find it hard to believe that my sweaty hot boiler has good stand by loss. You have to keep your boiler sitting at 140-160 to keep yourself in hot water and that boiler is almost always hot to the touch. I think there are alot of things to take into consideration. Cooling load on the hot sweaty boiler. Maintenance.

Oil prices have fluctuated this whole winter in the Lehigh Valley. They were up over $3.25, then down to $3.00, and now back up. PPL will be deregulated in 1 to 2 years, and we'll be paying twice as much. They use mostly fossil fuel to generate their electricity, so you're paying their profit, all their employee's salaries, their transmission costs, etc.

[bobb25]

I haven't seen oil go down in about two years. And lately it's been trending alot higher in the summer that it should. Also I find it hard to believe that my sweaty hot boiler has good stand by loss. You have to keep your boiler sitting at 140-160 to keep yourself in hot water and that boiler is almost always hot to the touch. I think there are alot of things to take into consideration. Cooling load on the hot sweaty boiler. Maintenance.

Oil prices have fluctuated this whole winter in the Lehigh Valley. They were up over $3.25, then down to $3.00, and now back up. PPL will be deregulated in 1 to 2 years, and we'll be paying twice as much. They use mostly fossil fuel to generate their electricity, so you're paying their profit and all their employee's salaries.