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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    8

    Carrier Infinity System Install – Need Advise On Location/Model

    Hi all, I have been lurking and searching in this forum of and on for a few months now and I hope you can help with a few questions. I live in a townhouse condo in eastern Mass (Waltham). I have the following to replace the old Carrier builders grade system from 1992. The equipment is to be installed next Tuesday 3/4 and as things stand now it will be:

    25HNA636A003 3 Ton Infinity 2-Stage Heat Pump
    FE4ANFOO3 3 Ton Infinity Variable Speed Fan Coil Air Handler
    SYSTXCCUID0 Infinity Control

    The old heat pump is noisy as can be and that bugs the heck out of me. It is located outside the living room windows. Since I am in a Condo Townhouse the only choice I can make on the location of the unit is how far from the building the unit can be placed. Taking into account the concrete pad and snow feet, the top of new unit will be just about even with the bottom of those windows. The existing unit is 20” out from the building. The sales person says I will not hear the new unit whether it is 10” from the building or 36” from the building and not to worry about it. I am a bit skeptical of this claim, but if true, closer to the building is better for cosmetic reasons. I have heard an Infinity two stage recip from the outside running at 50% and it seemed to be pretty quiet compared to others I heard, including mine.

    I have two questions:

    1. Is the sales person correct about location/sound and I should not worry about the it?

    2. Is there any reason or benefit to upgrade to the Infinity 25HNA9 70/100 scroll two stage unit? The scroll unit is listed “as quiet as 72 db”as contrasted to the recripocating unit which is listed “as quiet as 74 db”. Of course there maybe other mitigateing foctors that I not aware of so that’s way I am tossing this out on the forum for advice. The comfort and convience the equipment provides over the next 15 years or so matter a lot more than a few extra bucks so the added expense of the scroll is not an issue.

    I would appriciate some feedback on these issues.

    Thanks for your help

    Nick

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    6,837
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick250 View Post
    1. Is the sales person correct about location/sound and I should not worry about the it?
    The salesperson, IMO, is correct. But I would not put the unit any closer than about 14-inches from the house to allow ample room for servicing the unit.

    2. Is there any reason or benefit to upgrade to the Infinity 25HNA9 70/100 scroll two stage unit? The scroll unit is listed “as quiet as 72 db”as contrasted to the recripocating unit which is listed “as quiet as 74 db”.

    I would recommend the upgrade. The main reason is the method of stepping up or down during staging of the unit. With the scroll compressor, there's and electrically activated valve in the compressor that allows it to change capacity without stopping. With the model you've selected, the compressor must stop to stage. This makes it a little noisier and less efficient.

    The comfort and convience the equipment provides over the next 15 years or so matter a lot more than a few extra bucks so the added expense of the scroll is not an issue.
    I agree with your opinion on where to put the emphasis of expense versus comfort. So I must mention that I hope the installing company you've selected has done a thorough Manual 'J' load analysis and Manual 'D' duct analysis of your residence. It's is extremely important that the HP be sized for heating, not cooling. Otherwise you'll be heating with the electric resistance heat much more (significantly less energy efficient) than you would with a properly sized system. Taking full advantage of the 2-stage properties of the equipment normally allows the HP to be size to heat economically at very low outdoor temperatures. If it's sized only for cooling, as most condos are, it will run out of heating capacity at a much higher outdoor temperature and be somewhat of a disappointment.
    If YOU want change, YOU have to first change.

    If you are waiting for the 'other guy' to change first, just remember, you're the 'other guy's' other guy. To continue to expect real change when you keep acting the same way as always, is folly. Won't happen. Real change will only happen when a majority of the people change the way they vote!

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    PA/DE area
    Posts
    1,535
    The 25hna9 is quiter outdoor unit,had a 19 and put in a 16 to work with my zone sytem and I do notice the noise outside now where I did not before.They are installed in same location.
    It's NOT the BRAND,it's the company that installs it!!!!!

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    8
    Quote Originally Posted by skippedover View Post
    The salesperson, IMO, is correct. But I would not put the unit any closer than about 14-inches from the house to allow ample room for servicing the unit.

    I would recommend the upgrade. The main reason is the method of stepping up or down during staging of the unit. With the scroll compressor, there's and electrically activated valve in the compressor that allows it to change capacity without stopping. With the model you've selected, the compressor must stop to stage. This makes it a little noisier and less efficient.

    I agree with your opinion on where to put the emphasis of expense versus comfort. So I must mention that I hope the installing company you've selected has done a thorough Manual 'J' load analysis and Manual 'D' duct analysis of your residence. It's is extremely important that the HP be sized for heating, not cooling. Otherwise you'll be heating with the electric resistance heat much more (significantly less energy efficient) than you would with a properly sized system. Taking full advantage of the 2-stage properties of the equipment normally allows the HP to be size to heat economically at very low outdoor temperatures. If it's sized only for cooling, as most condos are, it will run out of heating capacity at a much higher outdoor temperature and be somewhat of a disappointment.
    Thanks for the reply and your advice. They did not do a load analysis. The old unit was 2.5 tons, the new one three. However, there are 269 units in the complex, most very similar, and the installing company has installed a number of replacements units over the past few years. In an email exchange he wrote:

    "Our project managers have to go to factory training every couple of years. We’ve been Carrier’s Dealer of the Year for the past nine years. This is all based on our installation practices and customer satisfaction."

    Bearing the above in mind I gave them the sales person the benefit of the doubt when I asked about a load assessment and he said words to the effect of "the techs fine tune the system after the installation".

    Tell me if I am being naive. I have no problems putting the brakes on the install if I am being given the run around. I am unsure if I am or not.

    Nick

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Hastings, MN
    Posts
    417
    As Skippedover said a manual J is a MUST I would hate to see 269 units installed wrong! This is your investment make them provide facts. Where did they get 3 tons from? Sized it off the old unit maybe the first guy was wrong. Duct analysis is a MUST to get the efficiency and life out of your investment. You will be very happy with this system in my mind top of the line.
    Aint Notin Sweeter, Then A Brand New Heater!!!!!!!!!!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    8
    Quote Originally Posted by mwjhvac View Post
    As Skippedover said a manual J is a MUST I would hate to see 269 units installed wrong! This is your investment make them provide facts. Where did they get 3 tons from? Sized it off the old unit maybe the first guy was wrong. Duct analysis is a MUST to get the efficiency and life out of your investment. You will be very happy with this system in my mind top of the line.
    You are on the money about the original installs. They went out to the lowest bidder and a sub,sub contractor was not unusual from what I hear. I had three bidders on the replacement system, and they all quoted 3 tons yet none of them did any testing to substantiate that number. At least I caught it in time to get the testing nailed down prior to the installation. Thanks for the heads up.

    Nick

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    68,125
    Big condo?

    You may have a hard time getting them or any contractor in your area to do a load calc.
    Unfortunately, its something that should be done. But very few contractors do it.

    Has this company installed any 2 stage systems for any of the other 269 condos.


    As others have said, the Scroll will be quieter going from one stage to the other.
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  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    8
    Big condo?
    It's about 2400 sq ft. They are townhouses grouped in clumps of four.

    You may have a hard time getting them or any contractor in your area to do a load calc.
    Unfortunately, its something that should be done. But very few contractors do it.
    Has this company installed any 2 stage systems for any of the other 269 condos.
    That's a very good question, I will have to ask.

    As others have said, the Scroll will be quieter going from one stage to the other.
    That's good to know. Currently, when I sit in the living room, I run the heat by the heating coils only because the compressor noise drives me batty. I even watch TV with noise canceling headphones when the compressor is running! That's why I am more that a little obsessed about sound. Grant me one more obsessive question. Is the Scroll equally quiet running at 70% as the recip is at 50%?

    Thanks a lot, Nick

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
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    68,125
    On most of the 2 stage Scrolls I put in. It was hard to tell if the compressor was running when it was in first stage.
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  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    8
    Quote Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
    On most of the 2 stage Scrolls I put in. It was hard to tell if the compressor was running when it was in first stage.
    For clarification, were they Carriers? One of the bids I got was for a American Standard two stage Scroll for quite a bit less than the Carrier Infinity. From a reputable dealer I am told. Sorry to be dragging this out so much, but I have to live with this decision for the next 15 years or so, and it's not like a car I can take out for a test drive and know what to expect if I bought it. I have no frame of reference, so thanks!

    Nick

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    68,125
    No, they're Yorks.
    With uses the same Copeland Scroll compressor as Carrier.

    Trane/American Standard use a Scroll that is made in a joint venture plant owned by them and Copeland. But only produces compressors for Trane/American Standard.
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  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    8
    Quote Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
    No, they're Yorks.
    With uses the same Copeland Scroll compressor as Carrier.

    Trane/American Standard use a Scroll that is made in a joint venture plant owned by them and Copeland. But only produces compressors for Trane/American Standard.
    I think that settles it. Correct me if I am wrong, but what I am hearing is that the two stage Infinity Scroll is the superior product compared to the two stage Infinity Recip. for melting into the back round and doing it's job quietly and without drawing attention to itself. Yes? Thank you for your assistance.

    Nick

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Richmond
    Posts
    480
    If you are looking for quiet, the scroll is the way to go. The reason some people like the recip more is because it is staged at 50/100 vs 67/100 for the scroll, which allows for longer run times and better humidity control in the summer.
    In addition to the unit, you will also want to make sure that the lineset for the unit is as isolated from the rest of the building as possible, as it can transfer the vibrations through wood framing members, etc.
    Since this is a heat pump, ask your installer to enable "Quiet-Shift" on the units control board.
    I havn't had a chance to hear an Infinity Pump, but you still may notice when the unit goes into defrost, but Im not sure.

    Hope all goes well. Post pics of the install, we would love to see (and probobly critisize) the work done.

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