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  1. #66
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Office and warehouse in both Crystal River & New Port Richey ,FL
    Posts
    18,836
    Good choice on the grilles,now are you moving the correct cfms??

  2. #67
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Fort Worth, TX
    Posts
    11,346
    Quote Originally Posted by tigerdriver View Post
    I'm using Hart & Cooley A611-104. I chose this one because the adjustable vanes run on the 10" axis, which will let me direct some of the air toward the wall and some into the room.
    I agree with dash...good register choice. Compare it to one of their two way stamped steel registers similar to the ones you're replacing...at 600 feet per minute (fpm) face velocity, your new A611 registers will discharge 80 cfm and have a throw of 8.5 feet vs. their 682 two way stamped steel model that at the same face velocity will discharge 70 cfm, and the throw is reduced to six feet.

    Of course, both assume your supply and return ducting, air balancing, etc. are such that 600 fpm face velocity is available at each register. In real life you may have more at one register, less at others. If on balance the modified supply air introduction we're after for your great room achieves what you're after...that is more heat down where you need it in winter and more effective cooling in summer, with less energy expended, you've done well.

    Since I opened up all these registers, I've got a lot more pressure at the (20" x 14") return--so much that the inrush air is quite noisy--sort of like someone running a vacuum cleaner in the next room. The diffuser currently has fixed downward-looking vanes. For the time being, I've removed it (leaving the filter in place). If this noise persists after I get the new ceiling registers in place, I'll revisit the issue.
    The return is noisier because it is intaking more air. Removing the supply registers removed restrictions times 8 (IIRC your register count). With your new grills on, the inrush noise at the return will likely drop some, but if it is noisier than before you began this project, you can then know your new supply registers are less restrictive.

    There is another side benefit to be derived from your efforts this weekend to seal between supply boot and ceiling drywall. Not only will you reduce heated air escaping into your attic when the system is not running, you will also lose less of the air you pay to heat into the attic when the furnace is running...more air into the room, less air lost to the attic...that's a good thing. This also means there will be more air available to be returned to the furnace that came from the room vs. infiltrated air (air that sneaked into the house from outdoors). See where we're going?

    I also want to become educated on air filters. I'm currently using inexpensive pleated filters from Lowe's. I understand the benefit of pleats (increased filtration area), but something tells me that better performance can be had with different filtrate materials. Any info on this subject would be appreciated.
    If a one inch filter is all you can use on your system, I personally prefer the inexpensive pleats with regular filter changes. My own house came with an Aprilaire deep media filter, but before I bought the house it underwent interior repairs which fouled the filter with drywall dust, etc. For now I'm using MERV 7 or 8 pleats from the home center, and I change them about every other month, unless they strike me as loading up with dirt faster. I do have plans to replace the deep media filter at some point, provided once in place and I conduct some static pressure tests, it is not overly restrictive.

    The walkaway thought in your case is to change your filter frequently with the grade of filter you are using...being where your return is located it's easy to be reminded where the filter is and that it might need changing, but possibly harder to get motivated toward grabbing a ladder to get it done. At least it's not in the attic...those locations get neglected the most by homeowners.

    P.S.
    If I seem really dumb about all this, it's because I spent the last 40 years living in Berkeley, CA right on the SF Bay. The climate is moderate the year round. Homes there typically don't have AC; in fact, my 1929 Craftsman Bungalow still had its original gravity fed furnace--which we turned on maybe five or six times a year....so I've got a lot to learn.
    I lived in California myself for twelve years...eight in San Diego and four in Roseville, a suburb of Sacramento. San Diego had the moderate weather you describe, whereas Roseville could absolutely fry at times in summer, and become socked in by a cold, dreary fog in winter.
    I remember one day helping a friend move from Citrus Heights to a new apartment in Pacifica...it was 105 in Sac...by the time we got to Pacifica early in the afternoon it was in the fifties. No cold front involved...just a dead air mass in the valley keeping the onshore flow confined to the coast. The apt. manager was running a little space heater in her office to stay warm. The contrast in temperature over one hundred miles travel was striking.

    That being said, I live in a more fluctuating climate now, where summers can be hot and humid for weeks on end, and winter days can be wonderful one day, pushing 75 in December, and bone freezing cold with howling north winds the next, with nightly lows in the 20's. Today being a good example...it was in the 70's today, thunderstorms now rumbling outside my window in advance of a cold front that's promising to make things cold, windy, and dreary again. Plenty of motivation, you can see, for me to learn and do what you are now doing for your house.

  3. #68
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    SW Virginia (Roanoke)
    Posts
    48
    Quote Originally Posted by shophound View Post

    The contrast in temperature over one hundred miles travel was striking.
    I've seen the same temperature differential between Hayward and Livermore--a distance of only 15nm. The former experiences the summer Bay Area coastal marine layer, while the latter is part of the San Joaquin Valley.

    Mark Twain said, "The coldest winter I ever spent was the summer I spent in San Francisco."

  4. #69
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    SW Virginia (Roanoke)
    Posts
    48
    I found this photo on the "This Old House" web site under "Home Inspection Nightmares." Thought you'd all get a kick out of it.

  5. #70
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Madison, Wisconsin
    Posts
    2,260
    Quote Originally Posted by bobb25 View Post
    That’s an interesting statement. Can you tell me in what instance a cubic ft. of hot air would not be lighter than a cubic ft. of cold air?
    Heated air: molecules are agitated and moving quickly and spaced farther apart. Less molecules per foot=less mass per volume

    Fourth grade sience
    I r the king of the world!...or at least I get to stand on the roof and look down on the rest of yall

  6. #71
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Southern Ca, Elkton Md
    Posts
    7,572
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheelbaron View Post
    Heated air: molecules are agitated and moving quickly and spaced farther apart. Less molecules per foot=less mass per volume

    Fourth grade sience
    Wasn't that a question on a game show?

    Are you smarter than a fifth grader???
    "Correct Installation is the Key"

    .1 has killed more HX then Rush Limbaugh

    What is your TESP?

  7. #72
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Fort Worth, TX
    Posts
    11,346
    Tigerdriver, All I can say about that photo:



    ...is


    Have your new registers made a difference in your great room?

  8. #73
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Long Beach, CA
    Posts
    3,386
    Quote Originally Posted by kuryakin View Post
    I had the exact same problem in my great room. In the winter, the only way to eliminate stratification was to run the ceiling fan. When I ran another return down close to the floor, directly under the existing high level return, and closed the high level return, the stratification was GONE! I assume it's because it's now collecting all the cold air off of the floor, allowing the heat to come all the way down. I used three stud spaces, since I had no other elegant way to run a duct. Works like a champ! And I close the lower return and open the upper one in summer. Trying to figure out how to automate this for heating/cooling mode...

    These are my findings exactly. I’m new here but this subject of ceiling mounted return air has interested me for some time. Does mounting return air registers on ceilings lower the heating efficiency of a system? I would say definitely yes. I recently did a test by building a box over a ceiling return so it drew cold air off the floor. It improved the rate of temperature increase by 70%.
    Heaters have a dual function; they supply heated air which rises to the ceiling, and the return air register (when mounted low) removes the cold air off the floor. But, when return air registers are mounted on the ceiling, the heated air is removed and reheated while the cold air remains on the floor. Also, when return air registers are mounted upstairs they pull the downstairs heated air up the stairway. Ideally, the return air should be downstairs pulling the naturally rising heated air down.
    Examples of this theory:
    1) Would a baseboard heater work as well if mounted on the ceiling and did not heat and remove the cold air off the floor?
    2) Would a fireplace work as well if it was built high and did not remove the cold air off the floor?
    3) Would a wall or floor mount gas heater work as well if it only removed and reheated the heated air on the ceiling?
    Given, the new units are more powerful and stir the air, but not enough to eliminate stratification. And, a ceiling fan is counterproductive because if it cools in the summer, it will cool in the winter by simply moving air.
    The dual return duct system, IMO, is the key to efficiency, and if someone would do a scientific test using dozens of thermometers throughout a house, all this speculating would be laid to rest.
    __________________
    Brian

  9. #74
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Ga
    Posts
    28
    Shophound, I think I saw one worse than that the other day. Man wanted me to rewire some lights in upstairs hall in a log house. He was adding a wall in the hall, that put the largest return for the upstairs inside a small bathroom. David

  10. #75
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Louisville, KY
    Posts
    12,189
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    These are my findings exactly. I’m new here but this subject of ceiling mounted return air has interested me for some time. Does mounting return air registers on ceilings lower the heating efficiency of a system? I would say definitely yes. I recently did a test by building a box over a ceiling return so it drew cold air off the floor. It improved the rate of temperature increase by 70%.
    Heaters have a dual function; they supply heated air which rises to the ceiling, and the return air register (when mounted low) removes the cold air off the floor. But, when return air registers are mounted on the ceiling, the heated air is removed and reheated while the cold air remains on the floor. Also, when return air registers are mounted upstairs they pull the downstairs heated air up the stairway. Ideally, the return air should be downstairs pulling the naturally rising heated air down.
    Examples of this theory:
    1) Would a baseboard heater work as well if mounted on the ceiling and did not heat and remove the cold air off the floor?
    2) Would a fireplace work as well if it was built high and did not remove the cold air off the floor?
    3) Would a wall or floor mount gas heater work as well if it only removed and reheated the heated air on the ceiling?
    Given, the new units are more powerful and stir the air, but not enough to eliminate stratification. And, a ceiling fan is counterproductive because if it cools in the summer, it will cool in the winter by simply moving air.
    The dual return duct system, IMO, is the key to efficiency, and if someone would do a scientific test using dozens of thermometers throughout a house, all this speculating would be laid to rest.
    __________________
    Brian
    ACCA and the Univerity of Illinois did the testing.

    Return placement is irrelevant when the supply registers are selected and installed properly.
    Perhaps you should have read the instructions before calling.

  11. #76
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Rochester, MN
    Posts
    5,304
    I have to agree with Brian on this. I've added a low return in my family room downstairs of a split level home, and it is a lot warmer down there. It in front of the stairs coming down, so it can draw the cold air off the floor as it comes down the stairs from upstairs.

    Upstairs in the hallway, I have a low return up there as well, and you can feel the cold air "rolling" down the hall from the bedrooms/bath into the return..

  12. #77
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    68,095
    Unfortunately, there is no single supply register that is designed to have the proper(ideal) throw for both heating and cooling. Without the HO having to adjust it for each season.
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  13. #78
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Louisville, KY
    Posts
    12,189
    Quote Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
    Unfortunately, there is no single supply register that is designed to have the proper(ideal) throw for both heating and cooling. Without the HO having to adjust it for each season.
    Very true.
    Perhaps you should have read the instructions before calling.

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