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  1. #40
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    Apr 2002
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    lol, I just looked at the pitcure, he has a ceiling fan, run it in reverse

    I would have went for a trapazoid myself, with a flat section at the peak

  2. #41
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
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    Fort Worth, TX
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerdriver View Post


    It's certainly worth a try. Two questions:
    1. Can I purchase registers that allow adjustment of the direction of the air flow at Lowes/Home Depot?
    2. Considering that three of the four walls are windows, will forcing air over them create more heat loss than blowing it straight down?
    Thanks for your rational approach.
    Reading your most recent post I kept wondering if you had attached more photos (which I could not see) or if you were referring at all times to the one photo in your OP.

    I only see one supply register in the OP photo, and it's kinda hard to make out the vanes. Looks casually to be a two way throw, given the difference in shading across the grill.

    Do you currently have something like this installed up there on the supply side:



    Or is it something more like this:




    If you already have the latter grill picture installed, you can either try to adjust the individual vanes within the grill to direct the air as we've discussed, or you could get a grill like this:



    This model has adjustable curved blades. Since the pitch of your ceiling would tend to cause the air discharged from the register in the second photo above to blow toward the center of the room, possibly causing drafts, this register can be adjusted to direct the supply air down and slightly toward the walls. This register is also less restrictive to airflow than the very first register shown above, so it will deliver more air to the room.

    Regarding moving air over the windows...this is actually a viable strategy. Not all of the air should flow over the windows, but enough to offset the convective currents that set in when the heating system is not running. While the furnace is off, air near the cold window glass and exterior walls will cool and sink toward the floor. This cooler air once it hits the floor will tend to cool air at floor level surrounding it...this effect is a large contributor to cold feet in winter. When the furnace is running and heated air is allowed to flow down past the windows and exterior walls, the sinking air effect is somewhat stalled, if not reversed, and the warmer air warms the area around the window and the exterior walls, leading to less discomfort felt by body heat lost via radiant heat transfer (the window and wall areas aren't as cold, so you feel less chilly being near the window or walls).

    This strategy is often called "washing" the walls...the idea in winter is to warm the exterior wall and window surfaces so the room feels warmer due to less loss of body heat to colder wall and window surfaces. In summer, it can be used to cool the walls and window areas, leading to less discomfort due to heat gain to the body from these surfaces.

  3. #42
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    Feb 2007
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    SW Virginia (Roanoke)
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    48
    Quote Originally Posted by shophound View Post
    Reading your most recent post I kept wondering if you had attached more photos (which I could not see) or if you were referring at all times to the one photo in your OP.
    Yes, I attached more photos, but for some reason they didn't make it through cyberspace.

    Here they are again: a closeup of a register and a panorama of the Great Room to illustrate the "glass" walls.
    Attached Images Attached Images      

  4. #43
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    Aug 2003
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    Fort Worth, TX
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerdriver View Post
    Yes, I attached more photos, but for some reason they didn't make it through cyberspace.

    Here they are again: a closeup of a register and a panorama of the Great Room to illustrate the "glass" walls.
    Still no pics. Do you have a link to a photo hosting site?

  5. #44
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    Feb 2007
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    SW Virginia (Roanoke)
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    Quote Originally Posted by shophound View Post
    Still no pics. Do you have a link to a photo hosting site?
    On my most recent post, you don't see the four Attached Images, or they don't view? Weird, I see them fine.

    Here are the links on my website; if these don't work I'm turning in my geek badge:

    Register

    Great Room #0

    Great Room #1

    Great Room #2

    Great Room #3

  6. #45
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    Aug 2003
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    Fort Worth, TX
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    Weird. For some reason your first try to post pics did not show up on my home computer...now I'm on a different computer and I see them just fine. As for the latter try, your geek badge is in no danger of being surrendered.

    That great room of yours has a lot of glass area. Does any of it receive direct sunlight during the day to lend a bit of solar heating to the room? Have you considered adding window coverings that can be drawn closed at night or on cloudy days to help hold heat in the room?

    I see a few possible things going on with that room in addition to the supply register choices. The location of the supplies themselves, around the perimeter of the room near the top of the wall vs. higher in the ceiling, can be helpful with the correct register design. The ones shown in your picture are among the most restrictive registers on the market, and IMO have one of the crummier air introduction patterns available. As it is, when heated supply air leaves your registers by the windows on the non-gabled sides of the room, it is being thrown in two directions, somewhat downward but also toward the middle of the room. If the air velocity is weak from the register, the heated air will quickly rise toward the ceiling, leaving a colder, stagnant pool of air near the floor. Exactly where you don't want a colder, stagnant pool of air...right where you sit and watch that big screen TV surrounded by all that nice cabinetry.

    Before we move onto register replacement choices, here's another thing possibly going on with that room that is making it more difficult to heat. Pull one of the register grills off. Is there a noticable gap between the register sheet metal "boot" and the ceiling drywall? 99% of the time, this gap is left unsealed. It may not seem like much, but I think you said you have eight supply registers in this room. If each one has gaps like this, and above this gap is a non-conditioned attic (not heated or cooled), you are in a sense pushing money up into your attic every time your hvac system runs, and even when it does not. These gaps are allowing your heated air from the room to escape into the attic via what is known in building science parlance as "stack effect"...basically your great room is a chimney, venting air you paid to heat out into an attic where nobody lives. Crazy? It happens all the time, everywhere, every day.

    It doesn't stop there. I noticed several "eyeball" type recessed lighting fixtures in the ceiling of your great room. Remove the trim ring from these and see if there's another gap there. Even if that is sealed, the fixture itself can be leaky. Recessed lighting and ceiling mounted supply register boots, when both are unsealed and both are adjacent to an unsealed, ventilated attic, are among the worst offenders for robbing your home of heat in winter and cool air in summer (not including duct leaks for the moment).

    Remedies? In addition to sealing the gaps in your register boots (the metal box in the ceiling that the register attaches to) and recessed lighting fixtures, a better register grill face choice would be beneficial. For the side walls, I'd go with the adjustable curved blade register shown in the third photo in one of my previous posts above. For the gable end registers, I'd select the register shown in the second photo. Along the side walls, I'd adjust the blades to direct the air down toward the floor and slightly toward the wall. For the gable end of the room. I'd turn each individual blade in that register to throw the air straight down toward the floor. The end goal aggregate effect is to have a significant volume of heated air being pushed toward the floor, displacing the pool of cold, stagnant air at floor level and forcing it to rise toward the ceiling return at the opposite gabled end of the room.

    In conclusion, three things:

    * Run your ceiling fan in reverse in winter to bring warm air from the ceiling level down into the room.

    * Remove all your supply register grills and seal the gap between the drywall and the register boot. Do the same for the return grill boot, and for the recessed light fixtures.

    * Consider selecting new supply register grills and adjusting them as suggested above.

    The end result should be this: Greater comfort at less expense. Now ain't that a winning combination?

  7. #46
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    SW Virginia (Roanoke)
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    Quote Originally Posted by shophound View Post
    That great room of yours has a lot of glass area. Does any of it receive direct sunlight during the day to lend a bit of solar heating to the room?
    No, it's on the NNW side of the house, and any late-afternoon summer sun is blocked by the 60-ft oaks on the west side of our property.

    Have you considered adding window coverings that can be drawn closed at night or on cloudy days to help hold heat in the room?
    I have to say no. We cherish the light in general, in particular our view of the Roanoke Valley, even at night.

    The location of the supplies themselves, around the perimeter of the room near the top of the wall vs. higher in the ceiling, can be helpful with the correct register design.
    I don't want to undertake major retro-structuring such as relocating the supplies.

    The ones shown in your picture are among the most restrictive registers on the market, and IMO have one of the crummier air introduction patterns available. As it is, when heated supply air leaves your registers by the windows on the non-gabled sides of the room, it is being thrown in two directions, somewhat downward but also toward the middle of the room. If the air velocity is weak from the register, the heated air will quickly rise toward the ceiling, leaving a colder, stagnant pool of air near the floor. Exactly where you don't want a colder, stagnant pool of air...right where you sit and watch that big screen TV surrounded by all that nice cabinetry.
    Understood.

    Before we move onto register replacement choices, here's another thing possibly going on with that room that is making it more difficult to heat. Pull one of the register grills off. Is there a noticable gap between the register sheet metal "boot" and the ceiling drywall? 99% of the time, this gap is left unsealed. It may not seem like much, but I think you said you have eight supply registers in this room.
    I pulled all the registers off and checked for fit. I was impressed. The upslope and sides of the boot were nailed to 2x4 blocking. The downslopes don't have any blocking/nailing, but appear to be well insulated. Here are the pix; any recommendations:
    Upslope and Sides
    Downslope


    It doesn't stop there. I noticed several "eyeball" type recessed lighting fixtures in the ceiling of your great room. Remove the trim ring from these and see if there's another gap there. Even if that is sealed, the fixture itself can be leaky.
    OK, I'll have a look at them.

    Remedies? ... a better register grill face choice would be beneficial. For the side walls, I'd go with the adjustable curved blade register shown in the third photo in one of my previous posts above. For the gable end registers, I'd select the register shown in the second photo. Along the side walls, I'd adjust the blades to direct the air down toward the floor and slightly toward the wall. For the gable end of the room. I'd turn each individual blade in that register to throw the air straight down toward the floor. The end goal aggregate effect is to have a significant volume of heated air being pushed toward the floor, displacing the pool of cold, stagnant air at floor level and forcing it to rise toward the ceiling return at the opposite gabled end of the room.

    In conclusion, three things:
    * Run your ceiling fan in reverse in winter to bring warm air from the ceiling level down into the room.
    I've done that already...makes a noticeable difference.

    * Remove all your supply register grills and seal the gap between the drywall and the register boot.
    The existing have gaskets of sort, but they are apparently insufficiently elastic and have flattened out. Do you recommend using a gasket material or just a good bead of silicon sealant?

    Do the same for the return grill boot, and for the recessed light fixtures.
    What sealing technique and material do you suggest for the boot/sheet rock interface? Tuck tape?

    The light fixtures may require a void-filler. Is expanding spray-foam safe/adequate?

    * Consider selecting new supply register grills and adjusting them as suggested above.
    Using these pix showing their width and length, can you tell me what part numbers I need, and where I might purchase them?

    The end result should be this: Greater comfort at less expense. Now ain't that a winning combination?
    Thanks for the thoughtful post. May my thermal cup runneth over...

  8. #47
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    Aug 2003
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    Fort Worth, TX
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerdriver View Post
    I don't want to undertake major retro-structuring such as relocating the supplies.
    I'm not suggesting that. Only sealing the boots and changing the register geometry is what I'm offering.

    I pulled all the registers off and checked for fit. I was impressed. The upslope and sides of the boot were nailed to 2x4 blocking. The downslopes don't have any blocking/nailing, but appear to be well insulated.
    No offense, but I'm not impressed with the gaps between your boots and the drywall, as I've noted in the pics I've attached to this post. But, to be fair, I've also attached pictures of the round supply boots from my own house (the house uses round ceiling diffusers), which were far worse than yours before I sealed them. I've also attached how I sealed the gap, which was with duct mastic. I bought it at Home Depot, since I didn't feel like going to a supply house on my day off to get some. It's plenty good enough stuff. Which should answer your next question...

    What sealing technique and material do you suggest for the boot/sheet rock interface? Tuck tape?
    Since your gaps don't appear to be as gaping as mine were, you can buy the mastic that comes in a caulk tube, and use a caulk gun to apply it. Be sure you have a large drop cloth in place below each boot as you seal them. The stuff can get messy.

    The light fixtures may require a void-filler. Is expanding spray-foam safe/adequate?
    I would not use expanding spray foam if I could not verify if it is safe to use around hot surfaces. There are sealants and caulks that are safe to use around high temperature areas and surfaces, such as a recessed light. At that I would only seal the gap between the light well and the drywall. You would need to contact the light manufacturer if you wanted to do any type of sealing above the fixture in the attic. Sealing the gap between drywall and fixture should be good enough.


    Using these pix showing their width and length, can you tell me what part numbers I need, and where I might purchase them?
    The register is measured not by face size, but the duct boot size. Measure the duct boot in question and you'll have the correct size.

    Thanks for the thoughtful post. May my thermal cup runneth over...
    I think it will. I think even if you just sealed up the gaps in your boots, ran the ceiling fan in reverse, and put the existing grills back on, you'd notice a difference in comfort and run time of your furnace. I read you're already running the fan backward, which you said is helping. Now, take it up a notch.
    Attached Images Attached Images     

  9. #48
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    Aug 2002
    Location
    Office and warehouse in both Crystal River & New Port Richey ,FL
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    Quote Originally Posted by shophound View Post
    I'm not suggesting that. Only sealing the boots and changing the register geometry is what I'm offering.

    No offense, but I'm not impressed with the gaps between your boots and the drywall, as I've noted in the pics I've attached to this post. But, to be fair, I've also attached pictures of the round supply boots from my own house (the house uses round ceiling diffusers), which were far worse than yours before I sealed them. I've also attached how I sealed the gap, which was with duct mastic. I bought it at Home Depot, since I didn't feel like going to a supply house on my day off to get some. It's plenty good enough stuff. Which should answer your next question...

    Since your gaps don't appear to be as gaping as mine were, you can buy the mastic that comes in a caulk tube, and use a caulk gun to apply it. Be sure you have a large drop cloth in place below each boot as you seal them. The stuff can get messy.






    I would not use expanding spray foam if I could not verify if it is safe to use around hot surfaces. There are sealants and caulks that are safe to use around high temperature areas and surfaces, such as a recessed light. At that I would only seal the gap between the light well and the drywall. You would need to contact the light manufacturer if you wanted to do any type of sealing above the fixture in the attic. Sealing the gap between drywall and fixture should be good enough.


    The register is measured not by face size, but the duct boot size. Measure the duct boot in question and you'll have the correct size.

    I think it will. I think even if you just sealed up the gaps in your boots, ran the ceiling fan in reverse, and put the existing grills back on, you'd notice a difference in comfort and run time of your furnace. I read you're already running the fan backward, which you said is helping. Now, take it up a notch.
    Shophound is correct on the sealing needed,in Florida ,Progress Energy (utility company) has found up to 15% of total cfm leakage at those joints and most looked better than those in the photo.

  10. #49
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    Aug 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by dash View Post
    Shophound is correct on the sealing needed,in Florida ,Progress Energy (utility company) has found up to 15% of total cfm leakage at those joints and most looked better than those in the photo.
    Dash, I believe it. Not only loss due to stack effect, but when the system runs with the register grills in place, there has to be air blowing into the attic due to back pressure from the register and the general static pressure already in the duct.

    The two pictures up above on the right are from my own home. I just got done doing it two days ago. The difference since then is real. Less run time of the furnace, faster warm up times whenever the setback times expire, faster warm up times in general whenever there's a call for heat, longer intervals between run times, and humidity levels easier to maintain at higher levels. The house in general just feels more comfortable, and I'm expecting a lower gas bill next month.

  11. #50
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    Apr 2002
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    Someone bootlegged this


  12. #51
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    Aug 2003
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    Fort Worth, TX
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    "Bootlegged"....Carnak made a funny...

    Great drawing...explains it well. Now if only such would become code for every installation out there, you wanna talk about comfort gains and energy cost reductions, there you go.

    I was reading my RSES Journal last night...an article about legislation that would "regionalize" SEER requirements for cooling equipment, requiring higher SEER ratings for areas of the country with a high cooling demand. I thought how off base that whole thing was...if we just built more thermally efficient houses and encouraged retrofitting of existing homes via tax credits, this whole regionalized SEER thing could go out the window in a heartbeat.

    I can personally testify that you can have all the insulation in the world up in your attic, but if your house leaks like a sieve, you might as well just leave a window open in winter and put a woodstove in the middle of the house. Yet another thing that isn't taught well enough in the HVAC and building industries...the keys to creating a comfortable indoor environment involve containment, circulation, and insulation. Two of the three get cursory treatment as things stand now...I'm sure you can guess which two.

    Tigerdriver...any word about sealing your supply boots and so forth? Your ceiling fan is making a difference, but what we're discussing here can make a WORLD of difference.

  13. #52
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    Feb 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by shophound View Post
    Tigerdriver...any word about sealing your supply boots and so forth? Your ceiling fan is making a difference, but what we're discussing here can make a WORLD of difference.
    I'm on it like flies on...well, you know.

    I ordered the registers off the web--should have them Monday or Tuesday.

    Today I did the register whose photographs I posted. On the two sides and the downslope, I removed the galvanized nails, ran a healthy bead of mastic between the blocking and the edge of the boot, then cinched those three sides with stainless-steel truss-head (low-profile) screws. I then smoothed out the extruded mastic.

    On the upslope side, I first applied a little mastic on the boot, the laid down some sticky-on-one-side nylon mesh tape between the boot and the edge of the drywall, then laid mastic over it to seal it all. IOW, I'm treating it like a drywall seam.

    I also caulked some tiny holes caused by the boot's geometry...but it all adds up over 8 boots..

    I'm going to let it dry overnight, then post some photos in the morning before doing the other seven.

    Thanks, all.

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