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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
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    Concord, CA
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    2,635
    http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/608/608fact.html#leaks

    In residential, the "have the customer sign" routine has turned into a de facto sales ploy. It adds pressure to an already unsure and nervous customer. I'm not suggesting at all that you had any such intent Bob. And indeed it is better to fix leaks. Not offering a leak repair as some guys do is not good either. But the customer is under no obligation to do so and we shouldn't force it or ask them to sign anything.

    The waiver routine may have been well intended when these regs came out years ago. There was a lot of uncertainty back then. But now the dust has settled and the law on this matter is clear.
    Last edited by Irascible; 02-24-2008 at 02:18 PM. Reason: spelling

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irascible View Post
    http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/608/608fact.html#leaks

    In residential, the "have the customer sign" routine is a sales ploy. It adds pressure to an already unsure and nervous customer. I'm not suggesting at all that you had any such intent Bob. And indeed it is better to fix leaks. Not offering a leak repair as some guys do is not good either. But the customer is under no obligation to do so and we shouldn't force it or ask them to sign anything.

    The waiver routine may have been well intended when these regs came out years ago. There was a lot of uncertainty back then. But now the dust has settled and the law on this matter is clear.
    Thanks for the link. I can’t remember ever reading that section, but I may have years ago. I’ve been telling residential customer’s that I need to find and fix a leak, but it’s usually over the 15% anyway. I've never made anyone sign anything. They usually just have me fix it. What do you do if it’s over 15% and a customer wants you to add refrigerant without looking for a leak?

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Louisville, KY
    Posts
    12,189
    Quote Originally Posted by bobb25 View Post
    Thanks for the link. I can’t remember ever reading that section, but I may have years ago. I’ve been telling residential customer’s that I need to find and fix a leak, but it’s usually over the 15% anyway. I've never made anyone sign anything. They usually just have me fix it. What do you do if it’s over 15% and a customer wants you to add refrigerant without looking for a leak?
    That 15% number does not apply to residential as the weight of refrigerant is under 50 pounds.
    Perhaps you should have read the instructions before calling.

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    South Florida
    Posts
    153

    Recomendation

    If there is a leak,unless told by customer prior to, I will leak check the system. I don't ask to do, what they have called me out to do, which is find out what is wrong with their unit. I will ask before performing any repairs to their unit and options and my recommendations. If they chose not to do what I recommend, it is noted under recommendations on the invoice. I have never had a customer upset by this policy.
    Too Few Pro Tech's & Too Many Parts Changer's.

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
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    68,064
    Quote Originally Posted by bobb25 View Post
    Do you give people that option? I pretty much just tell them I have to find and repair the leak. If I've never been there before, and it's just slightly under, then I usually just take a quick check at the outside unit unless it's a York or Goodman. (Not trying to badmouth either, just going by experience.)
    Yep.
    Let them make the call, if they want ot pay for a leak search or not. I recomend they do, but I don't give them a horror story, or try to make them feel the world will come to an end if they don't.

    Since there is no regulation or law that says a system containing less then 50lbs of normal operating charge must have a leak fixed. I will gas and go.

    Now if i hear the leak hissing while I am there, thats a different story.
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  6. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Louisville, KY
    Posts
    12,189
    My Dad did the math for several years. It was cheaper for a gas and go than to replace the coil. He got an extra five years from the system before replacing the coil last summer.
    Perhaps you should have read the instructions before calling.

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    O'Fallon MO
    Posts
    9
    low on refrigerant=low mass flow=low oil return=compressor lock up

  8. #21
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    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by WET BULB View Post
    low on refrigerant=low mass flow=low oil return=compressor lock up
    After how many years.
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  9. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Houston,Tx.
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    16,000
    Quote Originally Posted by jrbenny View Post
    My Dad did the math for several years. It was cheaper for a gas and go than to replace the coil. He got an extra five years from the system before replacing the coil last summer.

    Nothing wrong with that and also your Dad probably had a choice, some folks don't
    even have a choice they have to gas and go.
    __________________________________________________ _______________________
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  10. #23
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    Feb 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrbenny View Post
    That 15% number does not apply to residential as the weight of refrigerant is under 50 pounds.
    Quote Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
    Since there is no regulation or law that says a system containing less then 50lbs of normal operating charge must have a leak fixed. I will gas and go.
    Those are interesting interpretations. The way I read it, is than anything under 50 lbs. comes under a 15% formula. I'm not saying you guys are wrong, I'd just like to know where I am misunderstanding the section.

    "For the commercial and industrial process refrigeration sectors, leaks must be repaired when the appliance leaks at a rate that would release 35 percent or more of the charge over a year. For all other sectors, including comfort cooling, leaks must be repaired when the appliance leaks at a rate that would release 15 percent or more of the charge over a year."

    Later, it says: "EPA is performing random inspections, responding to tips, and pursuing potential cases against violators. Under the Act, EPA is authorized to assess fines of up to $32,500 per day for any violation of these regulations." Does that mean the building owner would get fined, and not the contractor?

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Fort Worth, TX
    Posts
    11,338
    Quote Originally Posted by WET BULB View Post
    low on refrigerant=low mass flow=low oil return=compressor lock up
    Just offhand, I'd think if the refrigerant charge was low enough to cause oil return problems, it would generate a comfort complaint from the end user. Perhaps on a heat pump run in heat mode your scenario might serve a larger role, as aux. heat might mask an otherwise undercharged system, but many folks also know when their heat pump isn't acting right...you read their stories here all the time.

    An undercharge not quite low enough to generate a comfort complaint still does not serve a compressor well...it is not being cooled as much as needed, and heat is the #1 enemy of motor windings and bearing surfaces. An undercharge of this level also extends equipment run times, which keeps a hotter condition imposed on the compressor for longer extents.

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Zelienople, Pa
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    2,965
    Quote Originally Posted by jrbenny View Post
    My Dad did the math for several years. It was cheaper for a gas and go than to replace the coil. He got an extra five years from the system before replacing the coil last summer.
    Did he calculate the loss off effiiciency and increased power usage as the freon leaked out or just the cost of the gas n go every year?
    How tall are you Private???!!!!

  13. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
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    All of that is under the section of systems containing 50 or more pounds of refrigerant.
    It includes build up systems.
    Liquid coolers that are not proccess, but not comfort cooling either are included if they contain 50 or more pounds also.

    Read the whole thing.
    Or go to the EPA web site, and look under leak repairs.
    You will see it is only systems 50 pounds and above.
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