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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
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    Los Angeles
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    73

    Cool Siemens and ABB speed drives

    Is anyone familiar with using Siemens to control an ABB ACH550 HVAC speed drive? I have to replace a Saftronic drive controlling a 10 HP return fan motor with an ABB drive and use the existing bypass. I want to control the new
    ACH550 just like the Saftronics was controlled. So with a Siemens MBC I want to enable the new drive and control it with a 0-10VDC signal from the MBC. I know I need to set up the parameters in the drive and wire the input, output, and bypass contactors. but my main concern is where to land the wires from the MBC. How about ABB drive terminals 10 and 13 for the enable(start/stop) and terminals 2 and 3 for the 0-10VDC signal from the MBC? I also don't see any need to place the drive on an FLN with a station ID(address). If this is correct what else am I missing? Any comments would be much appreciated.

    In the past I've had both Siemens and an ABB rep work together to do drive installs but I'd like to attempt to do this myself this time.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
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    Taxachuesetts
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    189

    Siemens and ABB speed drives

    The ABB is a good reliable drive with lots of configuration options. Don't have the manual in front of me but the Application Macro determines which input terminals are required. The HVAC Macro should work ok. The manual will show a wiring diagram for each Macro. At a minimum you will need the following:
    0-10vdc AI1 Teminals 2 + 3 (set the dip switches at the top to V)
    Start/Stop DI1 Terminal 10 + 13 (Terminal 10 is +24 volt to feed inputs)
    Safety Interlock DI4 Terminal 10 + 16 (Must have a jumper if not used)

    You will also need to setup the motor info and min/max speeds from the menus.
    Integrating the old bypass is more involved and will require the old wiring diagram and a copy of the ABB manual bypass (not the E-Bypass) diagram.

    Sounds like you are doing the startup yourself. Make sure you check that EVERY connection terminal is tight. We have found wires that fall off in your hand.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Dallas ,Texas
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    3,667
    Don`t forget to put a jumper for the 24vdc ground to the bottom control terminal

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Los Angeles
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    73

    siemens and abb speed drives

    krac-
    Thanks for the good information. The safety contacts(smoke alarm) will be landed on the bypass so I'll jumper 10 + 16. I've got a diagram of the existing bypass but I'll have to find a copy of the ABB manual bypass. I'm going to attempt the start-up myself. If all else fails I'll have to call in the ABB rep and Siemens but I think it's worth a try. I see if I can do a dry run with the motor leads disconnected first. As long as the drive parameters are correctly set I should be ok. I'll give it a shot.

    Goodlistener-
    That 24 VDC signal output is terminal 10, but I don't see where to ground it to the bottom control terminals.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Taxachuesetts
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    189
    Quote Originally Posted by koolncali View Post
    krac-
    I see if I can do a dry run with the motor leads disconnected first. As long as the drive parameters are correctly set I should be ok. I'll give it a shot.
    Drive may fault with no load on the output. Getting the rotation set on some of the newer drives that regenerate the AC output can be tricky. You will have to change the wiring on the output side of the drive if rotation is wrong. Bypass should still be ok. Would think your ABB rep is all that is needed to help out. What are you using for fan status?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
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    Dallas ,Texas
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    3,667
    Goodlistener-
    That 24 VDC signal output is terminal 10, but I don't see where to ground it to the bottom control terminals.[/QUOTE]
    Sorry didn`t have the maual at the time but you have to put a jumper on #10 and #11 and in the process not to touch #11 to #10 ...becareful.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Los Angeles
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    73

    Cool siemens and abb speed drives

    krac- ok I was just concerned about rotation, but I know I can stop the motor quickly if rotation is wrong. For fan status I'll use a current sensor switch on one of the 480 leads to the motor to send proof of "fan on" back to the MBC. That will be read in the Siemens PPCL code. In the PPCL there's a loop that compares static to static set point and adjusts the proportional signal(0-10VDC) to match set point. The company I purchased the drive from wanted quite a bit of money to do start-up. I usually buy from another company and they contract with a start-up company and include the price in the drive. This time I'm trying to go it alone.

    Goodlistener-
    The diagram does show a jumper on 11 and 12 and it's call 11 GND and 12 COMMON. Let me take a closer look at that.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Des Moines
    Posts
    281
    Possibly you are not aware of how tight Siemens and ABB are...

    No reason to hardwire a 550, they have P1 (FLN) communication built right into them.

    Just run a communication wire to the VFD and attach it to an FLN port on your Siemens field panel. Define the VFD in the system profile, make sure the address matches and upload the application. Done deal. Not counting pulling the wire, it should take less than an hour to set it up. Fancy programming will take longer but just on\off, speed and fault functions are a piece of cake. Very user friendly.
    Then, you'll have access to most all of the drive's data points (temp, rpm, current, voltage, kW, ect...
    Dingman from Iowa~
    "A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

    The Dingman's webpage, featuring the Ding_Z

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Los Angeles
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    73
    dingman-
    What I'm doing is replacing an existing Saftronics drive. I'm want retrofit the Saftronic bypass to the new ACH550 which doesn't appear to be a problem. It looks like the easiest thing for me to do is to control the new ABB drive just like the Saftronics drive was controlled. A pair of MBC contacts will enable the drive and then a 0-10vdc signal from the MBC will adjust drive speed. So the control wires are already in the cabinet. I can use the same PPCL "loop statement" for speed control. I'll use a current switch for fan status. I know what you saying also. I do have 4 other ABB drives that are on FLN control. They were defined as TECs. I can see the advantage of being able to pull up the subpoint display, see all the points and read actual data in the drive.

    One question though if I were to define the drive on the FLN. Since the existing drive isn't on the FLN then it has no existing address. I know that in the ABB drive the station ID has to be entered. How would I determine the address for a drive that's never been defined or is that made obvious when you are defining it in system profile?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Des Moines
    Posts
    281
    You are correct that it might be easiest to just use existing wires and PPCL code to control the drive.

    And, yes, it's pretty easy to see where to enter the address of the drive as you are defining it inthe system profile.

    And, if you want, you can do both. Add the FLN wire and define it but use all the existing points and wires to control the thing.

    However, you may already realize that you'll need to identify an "open" address on the FLN and you will set your VFD comm to that same address and then use that addy for your new definition.
    Dingman from Iowa~
    "A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

    The Dingman's webpage, featuring the Ding_Z

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Los Angeles
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    73

    Cool

    dingman-

    Thanks for that info. Now I got to see if I got what it takes to make it run

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Rhode Island
    Posts
    244
    There are basically three ways to connect your siemens system to your ABB drive or you can make it stand alone which is number 4.

    1. IO connections from your Siemens MBC to your ABB ACH550 drive. DO, DI, and AO. This would be the simplest way considering the fact that you are already setup to do it. I have done it this way a couple of times myself and it only took about an hour to get it running.

    2. FLN connection from your Siemens field panel to your ABB drive. If you didn’t already have your IO cables in place and point configuration and programming in your Siemens Panel this would be the easiest way. This way requires the drive to be controlled by your Siemens field panel’s PPCL programming and configuration of required points in the database.

    3. ABB ACH550 internal PID loop with enabling and monitoring from your Siemens field panel. The process feedback is wired directly into your ABB drive. The Siemens cabinet only enables the drive to run and monitors the it. In some ways this is a more difficult setup but required in some applications. (This is the way that Siemens officially suggests controlling this drive).

    4. ABB ACH550 Stand Alone. The drive runs full time or is enabled by an external dry contact closure. The process variable is controlled by the ABB internal PID loop.

    The ABB ACH550 is a very good drive and works very well with the Siemens System in any of these configurations. The only problem that I have with these drives is that they have to many parameters to configure, most of which you aren’t even going to use.

    Tip:
    If you already have an ABB ACH550 drive that is running the way you want your new drive to run then goto the existing drive and save the drive program into the panel (removable key pad) then take the keypad and plug it into the new drive and download the program into the drive then plug in the new keypad and save database into it. Now you can set your FLN address and communications information and motor data. Always save any changes you want to keep into the keypad so if somebody makes changes you can always load your known good configuration back
    in.

    Send me an e-mail and I will send you some .pdf files...

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    73
    Shiffer-
    I actually have 3 drives to replace. For one building I have an air handler with defective Graham(Danfoss) drives for supply and return motors. Another building has a defective Saftronic drive for the return motor. Due to various reasons I wasn't able to purchase direct replacements. So part of the problem is retrofitting the ACH550's to the original bypasses. The Graham bypass is a lot more tied into the drive itself than the Safronic bypass. It seems the easiest way to go is to try and go with similiar setups as the defective drives. I want to enable the drives by sending 24vdc from terminal 10 to the MBC and let MBC contacts send power back to terminal 13. I'll connect terminals 2 and 3 from the drive to the MBC and let it send a 0-10vdc signal to the drive. I can use a current switch for fan status. Then there are a lot of parameters to set up. I've got a few wiring changes to make on the Graham bypass panel.
    I've got four drives being controlled on an FLN by a Siemens application(I think it's 2734) and it works fine but the drives I'm replacing aren't on FLN Siemens application control. And thanks for the tip on the keypad downloads, I didn't know about that.
    If you got anything to email me then my email address is in my profile.

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