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  1. #27
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    Aug 2001
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    Angry

    First I have no military exp. I grew up in the vietnam era and have family members serve and been lost in every conflict since WWII.My son currently serves and has just returned from deployment in the persian gulf. In my opinion America has lost sight of the world situation overall. The military has been politicised and is no longer effective due to the politicians telling our commanders whats off limits to a military solution. the vietnam [conflict] That we lost so many of our fellow americans in was a joke to the administration. lbj would not allow us to bomb certain parts of north vietnam, we were not allowed to pursue the nva into laos where the nva had r&r camps and weapons and ammunition dumps. now afganistan where the same situation exist with the terrorist going to pakistan to regroup,rearm and retrain .America has become a paper tiger to others in the world. They know that we talk a great game but don't have the stomach or perserverance[from the american public or politicians to see it thru] The troops are true blue heros going into harms way on the whim of a fata$$ed politician that has military contractors lobbys paying them a fortune to keep it up but don't go too far. We'll make money untill the American public gets fed up then hell we'll call'em home no harm no foul.Except for our poor lost children,fathers,mothers brothers and sisters. I'm sorry for the rant but I get so damn angry that America has become such a fool in the eyes of the world. If it's worth one american life it should be carried out to the fullest extent of americas might if not we should'nt have wasted that one american life and politicians have NO BUSINESS INTERVENING IN MILITARY STRATEGY. would you hire a politician to fix your A/C AND REMEMBER DICKY CHENNEY IS whoops excuse me was the ceo of haliburton brown and root the military contractor that does'nt even have to bid.America needs to stand firm and let the rest of the world know we mean what we say at all times. And screw with us at your own risk. END OF A CONVOLUTED and somewhat crooked rant.
    EN VINO VERITUS

  2. #28
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    Red face

    Ya know I got so caught up in my rant I completly forgot about iraq. That's a horse of a different color. It's never been about iraq. It's always been about iran. Our politicians just go the long way to get there
    EN VINO VERITUS

  3. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by air311 View Post
    I don't see the point really in continuing this, but ok. I understand what you're saying. My original argument was that our troops are not in Iraq to protect our freedom. We would be just as free if we had never gone into Iraq. That's my only point. Our government will tell us we need to take action or go to war against a country to protect our freedom, when there's other, bigger motives for doing so. Saddam hussein wasn't going to attack us, or his neighbors, he was contained. The only WMD's he had were the ones we gave him during the Iran-Iraq war. If Bush would have said we need to save the Iraqi people, I wouldn't have ever had a problem with going into Iraq. But instead, they lied, and fed everyone a bunch of crap about how we needed to protect our freedom, and the only way to do that was to get Saddam. It was only when everyone realized it was a mistake that they suddenly said oh..it was to free the Iraqi people. THATS MY PROBLEM. Not everything our military does is to protect our freedom, there are other motives. But I guess i'm either not getting that point across, or some people truly believe that every military action this country ever takes is to protect us. I am not ant-military, for the hundredth time, and I am not a liberal, conservative or anything else. I believe what i believe, and when i'm wrong i'll admit it. However, I can't stand people who take everything as a knock against our veterans or our military. If you're fighting for our freedom to say what we want, then respect peoples opinions, and try to respond in a way that doesn't require you to have insult and bash someone for having a different viewpoint as you.
    In the other thread you said no one would explain why we were in Iraq or Vietnam. You said all we did was insult and attack you. I promised to explain if you would come here. I did and you say why continue you believe what you believe and that is that. Next you make ridiculous and unsubstantiated remarks about our presence and lack of standing in Iraq. All of your assertions are completely wrong by the way. You have a closed mind and fall prey to what the airheads on the nightly news feed you.

    I have studied history for more than four decades as well spending time in the Army where I held a top secret nuclear surety clearance with several additional qualifications that would mean nothing to you. Let it suffice to say I read many things that I cannot discuss but that curled my hair. I was also in a position to discuss military doctrine with some very well placed people. In addition to being a nuclear missile technician I was trained in Nuclear, Biological and Chemical warfare as well as being the terrorist NCO for my battalion. Since that time I have kept up with terrorism and its progression from Soviet bully boy to Islamic bully pulpit status.

    Since you asked I spent time and energy typing out three pages to answer your query and you dismiss it and say what the point your mind is made up is. I considered expending more time and energy to educate you or at least have a reasonable discourse. I have decided that this is the last post in response to yours because you are not interested in discussion just spouting your ill informed nonsense.

  4. #30
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    Apr 2005
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    9,750
    Hey Classical, I thank you and appreciate the insight you have given us.

    Some people you just cannot make look thru a window, they will be forever looking at the glass.
    Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  5. #31
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    Reb you are welcome also Glen and Csales. It amazes me how blind some people can be. They look at the world from their own little world and never consider what other events around the world impact our world and lives.

    Just consider all of history and the way we are taught history in school. Sometime take a year in history start back say three millennium then advance 500 years at a time until the decade of our countries birth. Then look at increments of decades and see how events around the world relate and affect each other.

    We learned history separately as American History our state history and world history that involved the rest of the world but not in context to events relating to rest of the world. For instance consider Australia and how and when it was colonized compared to the US. We have very similar histories with very close time proximities but most in this country do not know this. Look through out history and study how events from one area of the world relate to events here or vice versa.

    When you do this it gives you a different approach and perspective to view more modern events. When you have this perspective look at events worldwide over the last fifties and see if it doesn’t change how things fit together.

  6. #32
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    Oct 2002
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    Quote Originally Posted by classical View Post
    It amazes me how blind some people can be. They look at the world from their own little world and never consider what other events around the world impact our world and lives.
    Yea your right, it sure is amazing.

    Roy
    "The perfect Totalitarian State is one where the political bosses, and their army of managers, control a population of slaves, who do not have to be coerced, because they love their servitude"

  7. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by royc View Post
    Buchanan is almost as much an isolationist as Ron Paul. The thing I don't him discuss is what happens when Iran rolls across the middle east and shuts off the oil to the western world. You don't think that will severely affect our civilization and economy.

    Hell people are screaming with oil at $100.00 a barrel what will they do with oil at $300.00 or $1000.00 a barrel. It will take this country and the rest of the current industrialized nations half a century to move to some other type of energy model. Regardless of available technology creating an infrastructure to support alternate fuel usage is an extremely cost and labor intensive proposition.

    Consider how devastating the attack on the Towers was to our economy what if terrorist did succeed in executing multiple attacks. Our economy could crash so badly that it would take decades to recover if it ever could.

    In considerations of the very real possibilities having a military presence in the Middle East makes sense politically as well financially.

  8. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by classical View Post
    Reb you are welcome also Glen and Csales. It amazes me how blind some people can be. They look at the world from their own little world and never consider what other events around the world impact our world and lives.

    Just consider all of history and the way we are taught history in school. Sometime take a year in history start back say three millennium then advance 500 years at a time until the decade of our countries birth. Then look at increments of decades and see how events around the world relate and affect each other.

    We learned history separately as American History our state history and world history that involved the rest of the world but not in context to events relating to rest of the world. For instance consider Australia and how and when it was colonized compared to the US. We have very similar histories with very close time proximities but most in this country do not know this. Look through out history and study how events from one area of the world relate to events here or vice versa.

    When you do this it gives you a different approach and perspective to view more modern events. When you have this perspective look at events worldwide over the last fifties and see if it doesn’t change how things fit together.
    Ridiculous and unsubstantiated remarks? All I have been saying is that our government should not lie and say we have to attack a country to protect our freedom. And i never implied that Iraq would be better off with Saddam still in power. Sometimes America has to step up and take action, but it's not always to defend OUR freedom. That's my point, which no one seems to get. And what comments that i made are completely wrong? The ones about Saddam not having WMD's, other than the ones Reagan gave him? If he had an active nuclear program, wouldn't Fox news and the other Bush ass kissers have been shoving that down our throats? Bush would have never shut up about uncovering what Saddam was doing. But we didn't find anything. SO they made up different excuses as to why we had to go into Iraq. We had to take action after 9/11, but going after Saddam wasn't what we needed to do. In my opinion, the threat, if there was one, that Saddam presented wasn't worth all the American lives that have been lost in Iraq. But once again I am probably wasting my time, as classical seems to think that I am somehow completely uninformed and everything I say is wrong. And he seems to think I am knocking everything he, and all the others that have served in our military, have done. Which I am not.

  9. #35
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    Nov 2004
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    North Carolina
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    443
    Seem's to me that most folk's have forgotten that UN resolution that started all this in the first place. Sure, you can pull a sentence, forget about everything else & justify a position on anything and say (that's what they said). You can even murder your neighbor & justify it from the Bible or most any other religious text as long as you are carefull to use only the particular phrase that defend's your position.

    The notion that people don't hate for religion is ridiculous. That's probably been the number one reason throughout history. That's why religous fanatic's can so easily cultivate that hatred for their own purposes. Responce should have been { hatred is cultivated for a reason - power, money, etc} If you're buying into the hate group's claim that it's our nation's fault that these fanatic's hate us because of our action's you need to spend more time studying history than listening to the news anchor's & politicians. Try going back to the start of our nation & our first encounter with them when they advised us that their Koran demanded they kill all the infidel crew members of our ship. Jefferson didn't have a Koran because he was Muslem, it was an attempt to understand religious hatred.

    WMD's ??? Here in the state's a pump shotgun qualifies for that. In Iraq a fully automatic weapon doesn't so what gives? Sure, we gave Saddam stuff we shoulden't have, but so did the French and Russian's. Anyone that think's he had all these weapon's (that we know of) & he just decided to destroy them even though he was at war and needed them must have their head stuck in the sand.

    My guess is that huge Russian convoy that made it out just in time was carrying a lot more than breifcases full of personell paper's. Some weapon's are still buried, some we found & some got away. Do you think for one minute we would admit that we let germ-warfare component's or a nuke slip away even if it get's the president a pat on the back? I don't.

  10. #36
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    Apr 2007
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    6,285
    WMD's are what folks seem to remember (and apparently the only thing)


    Bush specifically stated this war would be one not like others. This war would be preemptive. This war is more of a mind war and not so much of a physical one. The point of going into Iraq and Afghanistan was to implement a new mindset into the "middle east". Since these regimes in the middle east seem to be some of the most oppressive governments in the world. Letting some of the folks actually see what freedom is in itself is like and have them revolt against the oppressive regimes.

    The preemptive part isn't the fact we went in first before getting attacked. The preemptive part is starting a mindset that allows these folks to completely change the way of thinking in the middle east. This war is not a 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 year war......this is a 100 year or more war.....You don't change whole societies overnight.

    That's the picture I see through my window.....I know I know who's right is it of ours to free people or show them a picture of what freedom looks like? Why do you think so many folks come to the US they want to be free....anyone that sees freedom will most like rather be killed than go back to oppression.

  11. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by air311 View Post
    Ridiculous and unsubstantiated remarks? All I have been saying is that our government should not lie and say we have to attack a country to protect our freedom. And i never implied that Iraq would be better off with Saddam still in power. Sometimes America has to step up and take action, but it's not always to defend OUR freedom. That's my point, which no one seems to get. And what comments that i made are completely wrong? The ones about Saddam not having WMD's, other than the ones Reagan gave him? If he had an active nuclear program, wouldn't Fox news and the other Bush ass kissers have been shoving that down our throats? Bush would have never shut up about uncovering what Saddam was doing. But we didn't find anything. SO they made up different excuses as to why we had to go into Iraq. We had to take action after 9/11, but going after Saddam wasn't what we needed to do. In my opinion, the threat, if there was one, that Saddam presented wasn't worth all the American lives that have been lost in Iraq. But once again I am probably wasting my time, as classical seems to think that I am somehow completely uninformed and everything I say is wrong. And he seems to think I am knocking everything he, and all the others that have served in our military, have done. Which I am not.
    I will break my word and reply again.

    As for unsubstantiated remarks how about stating that Reagan gave WMD's to Iraq. What weapons would those be, I asked this before and all you did was again made the same remark. The Russian provided him as well as many other Arab countries chemical weapons. We (the United States) do not provide Nuclear, Chemical or Biological weapons to anyone friend or opponent. The Russian war doctrine allows a line officer (Major or above) to order the uses of Chemical or Biological weapons they are in their basic load. In order for the U.S. military to use those weapons the White House must make the call.

    Saddam used chemical weapons on the Kurds that proves he had at least one form of WMD's and was willing to use them. Do you know how very simple it is to produce Sarin (nerve agent) or Anthrax (biological agent) it is not hard I assure you. Neither our government nor any other said the Saddam had Nuclear weapons. Saddam had missile systems provided by the Chinese and North Korea that could reach Israel as well as many other important Middle Eastern countries. What would happen to our freedoms if he had decided to decimate all of the Middle East with chemical agents or Biologic agents?

    Just so you understand how easy it is to disseminate these agents and how deadly they are I will explain. The Russian had a plane called the Flogger a simple Jet not very high tech like the Foxbat or an F-15. This plane in one variant was essentially a tanker and it carried Chemical or Biological agent. Its mission would be to over fly an area and release it's agent from 50,000 or 60,000 feet at night. The agent would fall to earth as a mist and cover everything. If you touched anything with that substance on it you and every one else that did so would be dead in 10 seconds. That’s right blood agent and nerve agent produce a very gruesome death in 10 seconds from point of exposure. In a cold climate many agents could lie dormant until the temperature raised enough and then become lethal again.

    Saddam had the Scud missiles that could be converted to perform this task without much effort. He also had military aircraft and access to civilian aircraft that could perform this task. If he stockpiled enough agents terrorist could easily convert a civilian aircraft to over fly a large metropolitan area of this country and kill literally millions.

    As to being in the national interest and our freedoms consider what constitutes freedom. I suggest it means the freedom to live our lives as we have since inception of our nation. That means access to sufficient food to feed our people, the ability to have leisure time and productive time through hard work. The ability to live our lives in whatever manner we deem acceptable with in the frame work of our Constitution.

    If our ready supply to reasonably priced oil is interrupted that will not be possible. Remember that oil is not just a requisite to fueling our automobile and trucks. It is necessary to feed the world because it is used in fertilizer and chemicals to increase farm yields. It is needed to provide packaging to protect and ship and maintain foodstuffs in our markets. We need oil to build our vehicles and almost every appliance we use daily. The tools you use each day to perform your job to enjoy your leisure time are all incumbent on reasonably priced and available oil stocks.

    If we had allowed Saddam them or today Acmadenijad to threaten that oil supply then our freedoms would be jeopardized. So in what way did Bush or Colin Powell or even Clinton the Russian and English intelligence agencies lie to us.

    I in no way implied that you hold the military or their actions in disdain. I do feel that you are misinformed due to the sources you gather your news from. If you were to gather news from sources other than a liberal media with a bias only towards liberals and the defeat of our country you would see a different truth. Saddam and others in his regime had expressed that they did in fact have a substantial program dedicated to the development and dissemination of chemical and biological agents. When it became apparent that we the U.S. and other countries were going to enter his country he disassembled the apparatus and sent it out of country to Syria and Jordan.

    George Bush has been a traitor to his constituent in that he has sold his sole to the Mexico and to creating one large North American country. I also agree with you that politicians in general are not trustworthy but on occasion they manage to get it right. Bush saved our countries economy and possibly our sovereignty after 9/11 due to a swift response in Afghanistan and with tax breaks. He has with some stumbling placed good people on the Supreme court.

    He also fortunately placed us in Iraq where we need to be to provide a staging assembly area for our Military. Whatever means it took to get there was what it took and if miss direction or some miss representation of what was going is what it took so be it. It is necessary because so many and you appear to be one will not accept the bare facts just the embellished ones.

    You don’t feel that the loss of life in Iraq is acceptable well I am not pleased by any death of brave people but it is hardly excessive. Do you realize that illegal aliens murder three times more people in the U.S. each year than have died in combat since we moved troops into Iraq? More than 25 times as many people die in alcohol related automobile accidents than have died annually in Iraq.

    Believe what you wish but our country is safer and will maintain the freedoms promised by our Constitution much longer due to our being in Iraq than if we never went in or leave prematurely.

  12. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by classical View Post
    Buchanan is almost as much an isolationist as Ron Paul. The thing I don't him discuss is what happens when Iran rolls across the middle east and shuts off the oil to the western world. You don't think that will severely affect our civilization and economy.

    Hell people are screaming with oil at $100.00 a barrel what will they do with oil at $300.00 or $1000.00 a barrel. It will take this country and the rest of the current industrialized nations half a century to move to some other type of energy model. Regardless of available technology creating an infrastructure to support alternate fuel usage is an extremely cost and labor intensive proposition.

    Consider how devastating the attack on the Towers was to our economy what if terrorist did succeed in executing multiple attacks. Our economy could crash so badly that it would take decades to recover if it ever could.

    In considerations of the very real possibilities having a military presence in the Middle East makes sense politically as well financially.
    You claim to be so educated, and tell us all how thing are so connected and blah blah blah. Then you make the statement that Ron Paul is an isolationist. If you have listen to Ron Paul you would know he is not an isolationist, hes is all for trading with anyone that wants to trade with us.

    You statement about oil prices shows that you and others in here dont even understand a free market place, even tough many in this hvac business dont seem to have a problem with charging what the traffic can bare.

    So lets say that you are a hvac dealer, and your the only dealer in a 100 mile area, and you set your prices accordingly, should I be able to come to your business and put a gun to your head, demanding you sell me at what price I'm willing to pay for ??. I'm assured you would not appreciate someone doing that to you.

    You said in one of your statements that we need to protect OUR oil. Well let me say, ITS NO OURS, it belongs to the countries who have it on their soil, and if we want it, we can trade for it, not by gunboat economics as were doing it now, putting our youg sons and daughters in harms way, so we can live in luxory.

    We have a constitution that limits goverment to the minimum of what is required, we no longer as a nation make our goverment responsible for braking it, cause were been brainwashed to believe the propaganda it spews out of the MSM, and that wonderfull object called consumerism, greed and welfare.

    We are about to get our economic butt handed to us, and what is goverments answer....print more Monopoly money.

    Roy
    "The perfect Totalitarian State is one where the political bosses, and their army of managers, control a population of slaves, who do not have to be coerced, because they love their servitude"

  13. #39
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    [QUOTE=royc;1770580]You claim to be so educated, and tell us all how thing are so connected and blah blah blah. Then you make the statement that Ron Paul is an isolationist. If you have listen to Ron Paul you would know he is not an isolationist, hes is all for trading with anyone that wants to trade with us.

    You statement about oil prices shows that you and others in here dont even understand a free market place, even tough many in this hvac business dont seem to have a problem with charging what the traffic can bare.

    So lets say that you are a hvac dealer, and your the only dealer in a 100 mile area, and you set your prices accordingly, should I be able to come to your business and put a gun to your head, demanding you sell me at what price I'm willing to pay for ??. I'm assured you would not appreciate someone doing that to you.
    I assure you I know one hell of a lot more about Ron Paul than you will ever know. I have followed him for over 25 years and yes he is an isolationist. You cannot believe what he says on his website or spouts in a sound bite. You need to follow what he does and says in his district on a daily and yearly basis. I voted for him in 1979 as well as John Anderson for president in 1981. His district is in my area I do service work in part of his district.

    As to calling it our oil yes I think of it as our oil. We our country discovered that oil and developed the machinery, knowledge and skills to extract and refine that oil. If it were not for the consumption capacity of the United States the developmental dollars of American company's and American personnel to build and maintain then educate the Arabs on how to operate the infrastructure. If it were not for the United States the Arabs would still be living in tents and be beggar poor. So yes I consider it our oil.

    Next where the hell do you get I don't understand economics. I am all for a free market but we need to protect the source of that free market and if oil is captured and we are held hostage to a radical Islamist regime how is that a free market. Free market is great but a level playing field is important for all. Because the oil companies developed the Arabian field’s decades ago and the Arabs can actually produce and profit on oil at five dollar a barrel.

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