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  1. #1
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    For Air311 Why are we in Iraq

    Here is a good reason and a start, others will explain more I'm sure.

    Inside some of the cells are messages carved by children into the walls. “I was ten years old. But they changed my age to 18 for execution.” “Dear Mom and Dad. I am going to be executed by the Baath. I will not see you again.”
    http://www.michaeltotten.com/

    Those were scratched in the walls of one of Sadam's prisons that raped women and killed children.

    The whole world though he had a weapons program. Yes, apparently we were wrong but it was widely felt that he was a threat.
    Never knock on Death's door. Ring the bell and run, he hates that.

    Views expressed here are my own and not neccessarily those of any company I am affiliated with.

  2. #2
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    so what is it?

    (a) the WMD 'boo-boo'

    or

    (b) documented human rights violations???


    if (b)...then, why aren't we invading / annexing Darfur???
    (...no natural resources in THAT part of the Sudan)

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by coordinatesales View Post
    Here is a good reason and a start, others will explain more I'm sure.



    http://www.michaeltotten.com/

    Those were scratched in the walls of one of Sadam's prisons that raped women and killed children.

    The whole world though he had a weapons program. Yes, apparently we were wrong but it was widely felt that he was a threat.
    Remember who enabled this guy, he was enabled by us, a CIA asset.

    Roy
    "The perfect Totalitarian State is one where the political bosses, and their army of managers, control a population of slaves, who do not have to be coerced, because they love their servitude"

  4. #4
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    Yes. And he outlived his usefulness.

    And I'd say we were kind of obligated to take him out, all things considered.
    No reserve. No retreat. No regrets.

    For those who have fought for it, freedom has a sweetness the protected will never know.

    http://www.airwarvietnam.com/16thSOSGunners2.jpg

    Proud member of KA Club

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by royc View Post
    Remember who enabled this guy, he was enabled by us, a CIA asset.

    Roy
    Uh, care for a link Roy? Sure we helped him fight Iran our enemy then and now but we didn't put him in power or build his prisons for him.
    "I could have ended the war in a month. I could have made North Vietnam look like a mud puddle."
    "I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them. It is not to inaugurate new programs, but to cancel old ones that do violence to the Constitution."
    Barry Goldwater

  6. #6
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    I should probably put a link to the thread in the general area that prompted this so everyone can see the beginning.

    http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showpost.ph...1&postcount=19
    Never knock on Death's door. Ring the bell and run, he hates that.

    Views expressed here are my own and not neccessarily those of any company I am affiliated with.

  7. #7
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    there may be 2,415 threads on this topic floating around this web-board.

    ...


    enough already!

    get the troops out of there...or better still - get our allies IN THERE.

    and, let those rats figure it out for themselves. eventually, they'll realize that collaborating with terrorists doesn't put bread on the table for their kids.

    if they even 'try' to stand-up and attack 'our interests' in the future....bomb them back another 3 centuries (they don't have much further to go).


    [check out: Edited by ARPC. That's a no-no Tony. E-mail us if you wish to discuss it ]
    Last edited by k-fridge; 02-21-2008 at 06:03 PM. Reason: Removal of inappropriate link

  8. #8
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    Air311 has not stepped up to the plate so I suspect he is code pink wimp but since this thread has been started I will as promised present a history lesson for him. I will attempt to be succinct but with as broad a subject and spanning the two wars he has. Some length and substance will be necessary. I also strongly suspect he will never see or respond.

    First the war in Vietnam; originally we entered this conflict in the early fifties in order to support and mitigate the losses suffered by the French. The reason we stayed and eventually escalated the war was to stem the tide of rapidly escalating communist expansion and aggression. Uncle Ho Chi Minh was schooled and indoctrinated by the communist regime of Mao Se Tung a massively corrupt and violent leader that slaughtered over 100 million of his own people even more than Uncle Josef Stalin in Russia.

    Uncle HO with the backing of China and Russia started a revolution to conquer the Southern state of Vietnam. Their purpose was to eliminate any educated individuals in order to have a subservient and compliant people to exploit in order to further militarily expand the tentacles of communism through out the region. Eventually they wished to surround and strangle all of Micronesia as well as the lower Asian continent (being India, Afghanistan and up into Iran and on into the Middle East. If you will look at a world map you will see where Vietnam provides the key to the oil rich lands for the communist. By dominating this area of the Pacific they don’t have to come over the Himalayas to reach the Oil territories of Iran and up into the cradle of civilization. Russia (the USSR) had a path through the Balkans and the Caspian Sea.

    For the Chinese Vietnam was the key to unlocking untold natural resources as well a fodder for their armies on the way to world domination. China as we see toady needed/needs natural resources to grow. Countries like Siam, Cambodia, Laos and the rest of Indonesia and Micronesia had oil Bauxite and rubber all resources needed to expand an economy and grow a nation. Getting control of this area provides control of the seas which means strangling oil to the United States as well as Isolating Australia. It eventually gets them in control of the Suez Canal and the Straits of Hormuz.

    We lost that conflict because Democrats were in charge of the early war expansion and did not allow in the field commanders to prosecute the war to our military forces capabilities. Does this sound familiar, William Christopher have a hand in that fiasco as well as the Mogadishu/Somalia debacle?


    Due to a civilian populace back home that could no see beyond the evening news and what a bunch communist indoctrinated college professor fed the students avoiding military service and a few dishonest future politicians (John Kerry) and duped celebrities (Jane Fonda) we ran from the war without fully accomplishing our mission but still having succeeded in distracting China enough and causing a rift with North Vietnam to stem the tide of Communist expansion. However they did manage to move into Cambodia and slaughter the majority of the population and reduce their educational level back to the Stone Age.

    Now lets move on to the current Middle East situation do not take the happenings there at face value look deeper and historically to understand. Yes oil is a major concern and that is our major reason for having an interest in the region. Protecting our supply of oil as well as the supplies for the remainder of the industrial and emerging industrial world is paramount if we wish to have a future and be a prosperous nation.

    We are also there to stem the growth of the new communism the radical Islamic state. It is a state in that they wish to incorporate the world into one Islamic world and the Middle East and Persia/Iran is the primary instigator and funding agent behind this. Remember Persia/Iran is the original Aryan state they are not Arabs; they hold the Arabs in disdain. They consider them a means to an end fodder for the great crusade to come. They are on the Strait of Hormuz and ultimately that is what they must and most vehemently wish to control. If they do they control the world literally. Here again we have the need to control natural resources as the primary impetus to military violence.

    Whatever justification Bush had to accept or invent if you wish to place troops in this area was necessary. Saddam Hussein was covenant pawn to provide a reason to place those troops there. In order to have troops in the area which we desperately needed we had to have a seemingly plausible justifiable reason. Hussein provided that by continually breaking the UN resolution and stone walling the inspectors. Did he have a WMD program of course he did he just shut it down but what difference did it make if he did or not. Iran does and will continue to have until we eliminate the religious regime there. They government of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, The UAE and other oil producing countries complain publicly in order to stifle the religious rhetoric in their countries but they need us there to stay in power and to protect there revenues. If the fundamentalist Islamic leaders were to prevail in the Middle East all of the current leaders and their families and fortunes would disappear.

    Yes we are there to protect or oil and the companies that produce that oil but to a more important role we are there to protect our way of life. The Islamic extremist just like the Communist of the 40’ thru the 70’s want to reduce the mass populations of the world back into the stone age of limited education and benign servitude.

    In order to control Persia/Iran and their ultimate goal we must have a significant presence in the Middle East and a Naval presence while formidable is not sufficient. We need land bases and control of large areas to introduce more assets into an area as needed. Being in Iraq provides that while allowing the current governments in the region justification for not making too strenuous a fight to remove our troops from the region. We were at the end of the rope with many about troops and bases left behind after the first Iraqi incursion.

    Considering the money spent on this conflict and the casualties to our troops. Consider the money spent during the cold war to maintain our presence in Europe against the Warsaw Pact and the casualties incurred by our troops in training. The casualties are higher but not alarmingly so and the cash outlay is very comparable in current dollars.

    The difference is we have smaller armed forces than then and the troops are acquiring actual combat experience not just playing games as we did. We are learning the enemy’s abilities and vulnerabilities. We are also decimating their better people and leadership. They have no real training facilities like West Point or Quantico to disseminate gained knowledge to up coming commanders. Their leaders are dying and they are not passing on lessons learned.

    We are creating troops and commanders that are not novices at their craft but skilled and capable leaders for the future.

    I am sorry for you if you cannot see the need but if we acquiesce to the liberal minded do gooders there will be no free society for our children and grand children to inherit. Personally I would like the world to continue and for it’s people to have a say on how to conduct their lives and which religion if any they wish to follow.
    Last edited by classical; 02-21-2008 at 04:34 PM.

  9. #9
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    Classical, very well done especially on the war in Vietnam. I would only argue our motives for the situation in Iraq. In my opinion the main reason we overthrew Sadam Hussan was for the benifit of Israel.

    They have the strongest lobby on capital hill and they pertty much dictate our forgein policy in the Middle East. We could have brought oil from Iraq/Kuwait all day long at a lot less expense they we are today due to speculation on futures and with out the trillion dollors or more the whole war on terrorism has costs us.

    That is history though and we cannot pull out now and to borrow an old line we have to "stay the course" like it or not. Sin Loy (sorry about that)
    "I could have ended the war in a month. I could have made North Vietnam look like a mud puddle."
    "I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them. It is not to inaugurate new programs, but to cancel old ones that do violence to the Constitution."
    Barry Goldwater

  10. #10
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    Glen I agree that Israel is a strong lobby and I did not include them in my dissertation because it always brings out the element saying we should not protect them.

    Protecting Israel is essential for many reasons and has worked for stability in the past but we need a stronger more substantial presence in the Middle East now. Unlike our stalemate with the Warsaw Pact we have no other trustworthy allies in the Middle East. I doubt that given the current political and secular climate in Europe even if the Warsaw Pact were intact we would have the strong allegiance we had in the past in Europe. Consider that France was a NATO weak link even in the 70's.

    Israel is a strong military force but they are a small country (land wise) and do not provide a substantial base for our troops to assimilate and deploy. With Iraq we have a substantial area in close proximity to future trouble spots to develop bases and landing areas. From Iraq we can rapidly deploy anywhere in the Middle East as well as continuously re supply without significant interference from outside forces.

    In a future war we will not have the luxury of six or more months to bring in troops and set up bases to confront an enemy. As we are situated now we and any support we can garner has a solid substantial base of operations. I also suspect that even if Hillary or even Obama will be reluctant to withdraw once they are briefed and see the whole picture. Hillary more than likely already knows this. They will both find a reason to stay the course and the media will as usual follow along.

  11. #11
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    I should have said also had a Dem being in office we still would have invaded Iraq because of the influence of the Israeli lobby. But now they find it convenient to criticize Bush for it when they supported it all along anyhow.

    But I wish we would have just stayed at home let Iraq have Kuwait and we would have our WTC. I am like George Washington. Let other folks worry about themselves and we will worry about ourselves and avoid the entanglement when possible. The cold war was necessary but this was not at the beginning but we went in and now we have to clean up the mess. We shall disagree about that but not about seeing it to the final victory since we are there.
    "I could have ended the war in a month. I could have made North Vietnam look like a mud puddle."
    "I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them. It is not to inaugurate new programs, but to cancel old ones that do violence to the Constitution."
    Barry Goldwater

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonys View Post


    if (b)...then, why aren't we invading / annexing Darfur???
    (...no natural resources in THAT part of the Sudan)
    yep ... you might be onto something ... but .... let me ask you this .

    Don't you like driving up to the pump and having gasoline available ?

    Do you like Electricity ?

    Do you like Heat / AC for your home ?

    Do you like walking into a grocery store and buying whatever you could ever want and need ?

    Then guess what .... we need to protect the oil .

    Still confused ? Ok ... Go turn off the breakers to your house , drive your vehicle into a pond , and plant a vegetable field in back to survive on . Get back to me when you come to reality .... mmm k ?

  13. #13
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    Very well spoken Classical.
    Never knock on Death's door. Ring the bell and run, he hates that.

    Views expressed here are my own and not neccessarily those of any company I am affiliated with.

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