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  1. #92
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    9,564
    Typical engineers BS'ing their way through meetings.

    What happened here is that ALC, Trane and TAC have taken them out to lunch and handed them specifications which they promptly combined similar to the way you make soup.... a little ALC, a pinch of Trane and some TAC.

    It sure seems to me that AMERESCO engineers either are lying or don't know a thing about what they are talking about.

    Start getting things in writing.

  2. #93
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Mount Airy, MD
    Posts
    7,281
    Engineers BS'ing there way through,, hmmmm, glad this does not happen often............. stooooopid engineers.....

  3. #94
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    73

    siemens vs lonworks

    Guys-

    Ameresco usually conducts their meetings with an entourage of engineers, so if one stumbles, another is there to fill in the "missing links". Normally in these meetings is an Ameresco team of engineers, the campus project manager(responsible for our new buildings and the central plant), a consultant (who is also a mechanical engineer who works for the college district), an outside consultant hired by the college to review Ameresco plans( they had a lot of problems with several things), a couple of engineers who are involved in the construction of our new buildings, three of my bosses, and .....me. I also think our project managers(supposed to be looking out for the interest of the college) has been getting treated to a few dinners and perks because they seem to be content with whatever Ameresco proposes.

    sysint- the control system they want to install is described in their spec as:
    an open protocol TAC/Invensys Lonmark/Lonworks based, web-based, with
    a graphical interface. Looking at some of the links you can me, this whole thing looks more like a BACnet/web-based system.

    ps- the contract term I believe is for 20 years.

  4. #95
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    9,564
    "open protocol TAC/Invensys Lonmark/Lonworks based, web-based"

    If they say Lonmark you can go to Lonmark.org and absolutely hold them to the fire. If so, I'd get it in writing they will follow the Lonmark specification. Rope them into it. Write a separate letter to YOUR two consultants and tell them you absolutely expect them to get themselves thoroughly acquainted with the specification and the protocol.

    Further, you need to define what "web based" is. If it is Tridium with Invensys then you may already have a conflict with a Lonmark specification. However, you should be able to receive a full LNS database before installation for your inspection.

    As far as I'm concerned requesting the LNS database with the programming data on the programmable controllers in advance would be reasonable. The LNS Lonworks database will show the nodes, their variables and interconnections. You could take a LNS software of your choice and open it up offline and review it. I would highly suggest doing this.

    EDIT:


    Here is a LNS tool
    http://www.echelon.com/support/docum...s/370x0-32.pdf

    Here's the other news you will find helpful. IF you are LNS you can not only review the installation offline, but you can access the actual site as it's being built online because you can have more than one client reading off the LNS database. This would be a very good tool to use for you during construction.

    EDIT: "Ameresco usually conducts their meetings with an entourage of engineers, so if one stumbles, another is there to fill in the "missing links"." -- Don't let them do that. Ask the guy that stumbles point blank to answer. I don't let that slide myself. I pin the guys down so they end up keeping their mouth shut unless they actually have a clue of what they are talking about. If the guy can't answer the question and another guy pipes in I'd ask him if HE is the guy that's responsible and then direct questions only to him on the control system.

    Sounds to me like you don't have a good enough project manager or engineering consultant.
    Last edited by sysint; 02-26-2008 at 09:26 AM.

  5. #96
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    73

    Angry

    sysint-

    Great information and links you got for me. I will put those links in my favorites for later. I have to say you know your stuff.
    And you are also right about the college's project manager. In fact you hit the nail right on the head. There is also a team of them. They are responsible for overseeing the construction of four new buildings on our campus as well as other projects. It took four years for them to get started on the parking structure. That was about one month ago. This week another contractor started pushing dirt and knocking down trees for the math and science building. I'm hear that two of the other building will be starting this spring. Then the central plant will be starting soon. This campus will be a mad house. This construction should have been staggered. So yeah they are not impressing me a whole lot.

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