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  1. #40
    Join Date
    May 2002
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    9,564
    Quote Originally Posted by freddy-b View Post
    Hey Sysint, Thought you might like to hear this. The engineer we have been working with lately who also happens to be the local ASHRAE president. Actually prefers LON tremendously over BACNET not to mention proprietary setups. And he is adamant and vocal about it.
    One of the few who actually analyzed the superior performance of a Lonworks network as compared to ASHRAE's bacnet. Or maybe he likes the way the he can get competitive pricing.... you should find out.

  2. #41
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Rhode Island
    Posts
    244
    Since someone did already mention UCLA in an earlier message I guess I should insert a comment into this thread. But I'm not going to..... I'm going to bed instead and if I am in a good mood tomorrow night I might comment.

    LON or Pure Siemens...... Which ever way you go just remenber one thing. HAVE FUN WITH IT....

  3. #42
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Rhode Island
    Posts
    244
    My turn again already?......

    Siemens/ Lonworks. Siemens does make a line of Lon compliant controllers that they say will integrate into an Apogee system seamlessly. If this is true does that mean that any Lon controller can be installed into an Apogee network seamlessly? You might ask your Siemens Rep this question.....

    I have seen several attempts of seamless integration of other controllers into my own Siemens system (sometimes management just can’t help themselves) and so far I haven’t seen anything seamless yet. It usually results in considerable loss of function between Siemens and the other controller.

    Personally my feeling is that if you have a Siemens system you should stay with Siemens and if you want to experiment with integrating other systems you should start with something a little smaller and more benign than your new Ice Water System.

  4. #43
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    73
    [QUOTE=shifferbrains

    Personally my feeling is that if you have a Siemens system you should stay with Siemens and if you want to experiment with integrating other systems you should start with something a little smaller and more benign than your new Ice Water System.[/QUOTE]

    Shiffer- I wish it was that simple but it's not. The "powers that be" seem determined to force my school to go with Lonworks for the Ice plant. The project manager has called for "TAC" invensys with Automated Logic controls. Is anybody familiar with either of these? My boss and I are fighting to make the ice plant Siemens to keep things simple but I think we are fighting a losing battle.

  5. #44
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    2,145
    Sounds like a strange combination. TAC / Invensys is not exactly an 'open' LON system. You must have proprietary software to set up there controllers and you have to have a contractual agreement to buy their products. You will be stuck with the local TAC contractor just like you are stuck with the local Seimens guy.
    Automated Logic in my understanding is strictly BACnet, not sure where that fits in. They too restrict sales to dealers. Maybe they have something in a LON line but I haven't heard of it yet. In any event it sounds like you are getting stuck with another proprietary frankenstein.

  6. #45
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    9,564
    Quote Originally Posted by koolncali View Post
    ....The "powers that be" seem determined to force my school to go with Lonworks for the Ice plant. The project manager has called for "TAC" invensys with Automated Logic controls. Is anybody familiar with either of these? My boss and I are fighting to make the ice plant Siemens to keep things simple but I think we are fighting a losing battle.
    Here is what is happening: ALC has OEM setups with equipment suppliers and TAC may be using their Andover products (bacnet) or Invensys bacnet products. Otherwise, they are using those LOUSY ALC lonworks portals on the equipment (JUNK).

    What you need to do if you want Lonworks is specify LNS Lonworks (lonmark.org). Also, you need to make as many pieces of equipment have Lonworks based controllers and not lonworks "interfaces". ALC would not be acceptable based on that criteria.

    TAC's database compiles to LNS Lonworks so IF TAC gives you all their software that may not be so bad.

    At the end of the day you want to be able to have a LNS database that you can load into the software package of your choosing in the future.

    Let me be more blunt: If they are recommending ALC/TAC I'd say no to that and go Tridium with Lonworks controllers or have Siemens use their Lonworks lineup. You would be farther ahead.

    Go to http://www.ddc-online.org/ and look at the manufacturers. For each you can see their ARCHITECTURE drawing. Open them up. Here's a link to ALC. Tell me where their Lonworks is...

    Automated Logic
    Andover
    It's nowhere to be found

    TAC
    With the TAC/Invensys lineup they have bacnet controllers also...

    Something tells me your screwed and you are asking for Lonworks and are getting bacnet. In my book I call that lying. Maybe in CA they call it something else.
    Last edited by sysint; 02-20-2008 at 09:00 AM.

  7. #46
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Northeast USA
    Posts
    76
    koolncali,
    It sounds like you are very hands on with your Siemens system. We've done quite a few LNS/Lonworks jobs and I don't think you are going to be satisfied if you like tweaking the code. Most of the Lonworks devices on the market are "application specific controllers" which means no code tweaking, only configuration changes. There are some different custom programmable Lon devices but other than one that comes to mind (Distech) they all require proprietary software to program. Not having any direct experience with Siemens the closest thing I can think of that you can edit line code on the fly is Andover (not Lon). Honeywell XL5000 controllers (XL50, Xl500, XL500 Smart) devices can be programmed as Lon but the program cannot be edited on the fly since it is compiled then downloaded. I'm sure others will jump in with their experiences/products.

    Since your project is being driven by an energy savings contractor they probably already have subs or companies already under their umbrella that they use for their projects. This means the choice in who puts the stuff in and what you get is limited.

    What ever you get, do the research on the product and watch over the install and make sure you a getting what you specified.
    You lost your dongle!

  8. #47
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    9,564
    It's like anything. You need the software. If he has Lonworks programmables he opens up the software package, edits and downloads the controller. That's not really any different across the board. Having a LNS database allows options.

    Let's face it, he's getting a bacnet system and Ameresco is blowing off their request for Lonworks. He's not getting that.

    What I'm waiting for is a web based GPC embedded into a controller so I don't have to mess with software. I thought that Sysmik was getting close, and quite frankly the ilon platform would be closing in should they be smart enough to realize it. (I've told them directly many, many times) --- maybe I need to write a GPC to be encased in a smart server........ That would be a neat app.

  9. #48
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Western Colorado
    Posts
    497

    tridium

    Go with Tridium and feel good about being able to call any decent shop for service. Chris W. hit the nail on the head with one word; FREEDOM!
    RealEyes
    Realize
    RealLies!




  10. #49
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    9,564
    Yea, freedom from everything except Tridium....

    Doesn't matter on the programmables and this project WILL need programmables. Therefore, any front end WILL NEED the associated software package from the vendor UNLESS they use the FREE software from DISTECH which is in a LNS plugin.

    What the guy needs to do is specify every software package necessary for all operations and programming on each controller is provided. Personally, I'd make the OEM's provide the same or provide the controller the owner wants on their equipment. That way they avoid the ALC garbage that purposely does a ridiculously poor job with Lonworks translation. Their interface to LON stinks and I think they do it on purpose because it's hard to screw something up that badly without it being intentional.

  11. #50
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Northeast USA
    Posts
    76
    What is it with Tridium and freedom? Does Tridium Man fly from his cave and fix every control system woe that exists?

    I'm not saying that Tridium is bad, it needs to be connected to a properly engineered and properly installed control system to do it's job. What i think most of the posters on this thread are trying to do is inform koolincali of how to really analyze what he may be getting and how to try and steer his facility to the best choice for them. If you are going to make such proclamations about a product please substatiate it with some specific information.
    You lost your dongle!

  12. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by sysint View Post
    Yea, freedom from everything except Tridium....

    Doesn't matter on the programmables and this project WILL need programmables. Therefore, any front end WILL NEED the associated software package from the vendor UNLESS they use the FREE software from DISTECH which is in a LNS plugin.

    What the guy needs to do is specify every software package necessary for all operations and programming on each controller is provided. Personally, I'd make the OEM's provide the same or provide the controller the owner wants on their equipment. That way they avoid the ALC garbage that purposely does a ridiculously poor job with Lonworks translation. Their interface to LON stinks and I think they do it on purpose because it's hard to screw something up that badly without it being intentional.
    There are many vendors who give you the plug-ins needed. Distech is the only one I know of that just makes it available to anybody online. That doesn't mean the others are not free.
    There are others for example that try to lock you down under the "open" umbrella of Lon. TAC/Invensys for example. That dont have or dont wish to share plug ins or give/sell you the software needed (Workplace Tech). Just because its Lon doesn't mean you get full functionality/programming capability of every Device that could be out there with a echolon chip in it. Regardless of the system.Be it TridiumAX or the ILON stuff.
    So it boils down once again to doing your homework, pick the right hardware, writing bullet proof specs that include all software needed to do anything with your system . And if they cant/wont do that for you, then you dont want them anyway. Look elsewhere until you find straight shooters.

    But even with Tridium/ILON problems that could arise in proggramming some vendor so called Lon devices , They are still far more desireable than any Proprietary solution of any flavor of "openness" that they try to sell you.

  13. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by davetec View Post
    What is it with Tridium and freedom? Does Tridium Man fly from his cave and fix every control system woe that exists?

    I'm not saying that Tridium is bad, it needs to be connected to a properly engineered and properly installed control system to do it's job. What i think most of the posters on this thread are trying to do is inform koolincali of how to really analyze what he may be getting and how to try and steer his facility to the best choice for them. If you are going to make such proclamations about a product please substatiate it with some specific information.
    Is there a big ILON search light in the sky. You and Sys put on your tights and slide down a pole to the ILON mobile?
    Thats a silly statement to make.
    A properly installed is a must with ANYTHING.
    Best choice for him honestly IMO would be a Stafa Jace with the seimen drivers for the existing stuff and Lon for anything new and to slowly weed out the siemens as it failed. To me its a no brainer. More upfront cost..sure. Longterm... would sure make future projects more competitive wouldnt it. Plus the benefit of a consolodated system without all the Frankenstien like kluster.
    IMO ...If I was a building owner. A new construction or a old building starting from scratch with a new system top to bottom would be the only reasons I would even consider ILON.
    Last edited by freddy-b; 02-20-2008 at 02:36 PM.

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