New Guest
Our plant is planning to retire our 1951 York 600 ton R11 electric centrifugal and replace it with either a low-pressure Trane using Suva-123 or a high-pressure York using 134A refrigerant (also 600 ton).
I would be interested in hearing opinions about the reliability and efficiency of the two units. The Trane design is very simple (sealed motor, no gearing), but uses an ozone-depleting gas, although they guarantee a very minute leakage rate. On the other hand, we have a 57 year-old York that still runs, so I would be tempted to stay with them.
Professional Member
If it were me ,I would stay with the York 134A Chiller, with a VSD Why would you want to replace a chiller with a refrigerant that is a CFC and is going to be phased out in the near future. The 134A machine is a lot less labor intensive,and is proven to be a safe refrigerant for the enviroment and the technician. Iwould look at the energy savings with a York VSD Machine and the kw per ton vs the Trane machine.
Regular Guest
You have a chiller that is 57 years running and you want to get another brand.Now that poor old chilled has made millions of gallons of cold water for you loyally and you are even thinking of changing brands now were is your loyalty atOriginally Posted by facilitiesguy
Professional Member*
I would also go with the York YK machine with the "P" syle compressor on a VSD. We have installed several of these machines and they work great. Just make sure you have good tower water control. You want cooooooooooold condenser water. I was a great fan of Trane CHVE/F units until the YK came out. Go with York on R-134a since R-123 is on the hit list along with R-22.
"I'm from Texas, what country are you from?"
Professional Member
I have heard that Trane that is going to be at a standstill with their centrifugal chillers that run on 123.
Dont remember the details but in 2010 I think they would not be able to produce.
What we have here, is a failure to communicate........
Professional Member
What about efficiency. No one can come close to a Trane CVHE . As for the 123 Phase out . Why would you phase out a zero ODP and GWP refrigerant.??? R123 phase out will be pushed back just like the R22 phase out date and R123 is used to manufacture other refrigerants. Low pressure is the way to go on large tonnage. low pressure ,chiller leaks- sucks air. High pressure- chiller leaks big mess oil lost refrigerant etc etc lots of $$$$$$ to fix.
Professional Member
I would go with a Trane CVH model. 600 tons, that is a ton of refrigerant. High pressure just don't cut it on effiecency. Trane is coming out with a new CH530 platform called the Adapt-A-View. All I can say is look out York.
Regular Guest
man how can you make statements like that,is 123 cheap,I know high pressure machines leak but damn man if you keep up maintenance on them,they perk like their supposed to.Hmm low pressure machines need purge unitsI guess they don't leak ay expain I need help with this
Professional Member
Remember JCI controls York!
Dealing with Global Warming
Professional Member
WHat does this have to do with anything?????
Professional Member
Frick . No R123 is not cheap but why would I need it the chiller didnt loose its load like a high pressure machine it now just has air and refrigerant in it .Also you forgot to mention my main point so I'll make it again
EFFICIENCY EFFICIENCY EFFICIENCY EFFICIENCY. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Professional Member
Either brand is fine by me. They will both need maintanance and service at some point. JMHO
To much work with too little time!!!!
Professional Member*
1. I heard that R-123 used to make R-134a, if so what is going to happen to R-134a if 123 is out of production?
2.How can you say a R-134a machine is a lot less labor intensive???
You are always fixing leaks, they are great for the service mechanic.
3. Ya definitely look at the energy use of both machines, but, look at the usage of the whole plant, not just the chiller. Remember the meter is on the bldg , not the chiller. What does it take to make that Coooooooollllldddddd water that Stickerhead says Yorks like, and makes them efficient?
4. How is R-123 not safe to work with? Do you use it to wash your parts?
Proper handling and recovery techniques do not endanger the mechanic or the enviroment.
I have a site with 2- 900 ton CVHF's that are ten years old, each has over 50,000 hours run time. In ten years there has been ZERO # of refrig added to these chillers. All we have done is change the oil once and normal maint.
How many YK's can say they have never had any refrig added in ten years, hell, even 1 year.
Professional Member
Just because a Trane might be slightly more efficient on a design day at full load doesn't mean its the best unit for his application. If he happens to be in a more northern climate and is able to lower the tower water temp. A YK with VSD would blow that Trane out of the water. So would a McQuay with VFD for that matter. Not to mention as already stated 123 is going to be phased out, or the fact that it makes your balls grow with any exposer greater then 50 ppm for an extended time, or the fact Dumbazz Trane is the "only" Chiller Manufacture left still using R123. Or the fact Trane does have a R134A unit it refuses to sell in the US. Last but not lest McQuay has a press release claiming "0.47 kW/ton at full load" which I believe is what Trane's states its R123 chillers are at. Link to said press release http://www.mcquay.com/McQuayCom/Abou...20070918142101
Whats you got to say about that Trane Boy?
Professional Member
You've had a York chiller since 1951 and it's been good to you...now you want to switch brands???/ Where is the loyalty.
Yk's with drives are good chillers....it seems like the 1st. year or two there are leaks.....variable orofice valve "O" rings were an issue that has been resolved. If I was going to buy one I would spend a few extra $$$$ and order the optional isolation valves. This allows you to store the charge in either the condenser or Evap and really speeds up recovery.
CVHF's and the smaller CVHE's. 123 IS going to be phased out...and probably sooner than later....The liquidflow 2 drives can't match the performance of the York drive (IMO). Copper plating of the thrust bearings has been an issue...I've even heard of the ceramic bearings plating up.....I'm not sure if that is true. And the hermetic design may be simple but requires a lot more work to change a motor or replace bearings. I'm sure Trane has something up their sleeve for 123 replacement.....but they have been lobbying pretty hard to extend it.
As for McQuay... I hate them!
Professional Member
14 posts and only 1 neutral? i thought that it would be higher...like 50 or 60 posts before we got a neutral view point!!
we all have our favorites...usually it is whatever we sell or have in our plants. we would hate to look like we sell 2nd rate equipment or bought it at the very least. both brands have excellent characteristics...and less than excellent.
like drivewizard says, you need to look at the whole plant for real efficiency. i do not care what machine you have, if your peak load is only 200 tons and you install a 600 ton machine, you ain't gonna have any efficiency. we have a high school that the OLD 300 ton machine could handle it and now the brilliant engineer installed a 900 ton machine...that idiot.
as for the twins...i believe that the R123 exposure test was to rats at 50,000 times the standard safety rate before they became enlarged...who cares? mine don't work anymore anyway!!
i have to give the nod to Trane
as far as whether the refrigerant will be around...well they have not been allowed to make R11 for how long? i can still get it at the drop of a hat...with less leakage "out", R123 is going to be around for quite some time. the 2010 date is for making equipment that uses R123, not for the refrigerant itself. i believe that date is still 2020. so they will be able to make the refrigerant (that you will rarely have to purchase) for 10 years after the equipment that uses it stops being made.
i would purchase the brand that has a great service department that you are comfortable with.
good luck.
"Right" is not the same as "Wise".
Don't step on my favorite part of the Constitution just to point out your favorite part.
Just because you can measure it, doesn't mean it is important. Just because you can't measure it, doesn't mean it isn't important.
New Guest
Our plant is in Mississauga, Ontario. We require comfort cooling only so the chiller runs only from May through September. Water temperatures out of the tower will be around 85 deg. most of the time.
I am concerned about efficiency, but based on the run-hours per year, the difference between the best and worst will still be only several thousand dollars.
Reliability and maintenance seem more relevant to me. Posts have said that all units will leak, so I think I would be more comfortable with the low-pressure machine, so the refrigerant stays inside. Losing a charge of almost a ton of 134A would be hard to explain to my boss. The fact that Carrier offers optional pump-out storage and isolation valves makes me think that leak repairs aren't that uncommon. (Any opinions on Carrier 19XR Evergreen 134A units - a have a proposal from them as well.)
As to availability of R-123 in the future, Trane is "guaranteeing" that they will be able to supply. York has a short article on the cut-back in production at http://www.york.com/esglist/pdf/123faq.pdf that suggests that there will be shortages. The Trane rep countered by saying that some European countries have banned 134A because it is a GWG (Greenhouse Warming Gas) and it may also be banned in North America (automobile A/C in California).
The Trane rep said York and Carrier got out of low-pressure because they weren't competitive with Trane.
Thanks for the comments so far.
Professional Member
First choice would be Trane, just because of the fact they never need gas again.Second would be York but plan on adding plenty of gas in the future.I would never pick the Carrier, they are the ugly red headed step child, but stll better than Mquay, had to get the hit in.
Regular Guest
Phase out date
The actual phase out date of new manufactured equipment using R123 is 2020.
The Montreal Protocol authorizes HCFC R123 for use in developed countries in new chillers until 2020 and for service until 2030. This means that we will have Virgin R123 available until 2030.
The best thing about a leak on low pressure is that the refrigerant stays in the machine! Even small leaks on high pressure machines can amount to quite a bit of lost refrigerant $$$ on an annual basis.
New machines utilizing R22 will have the phase out date of 2010.
Professional Member
Also look to future shortages of 134A, or try and figure out a way to reclaim it from the upper atmosphere when it is bannned altogether.
Posting Permissions
Reply