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  1. #40
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Office and warehouse in both Crystal River & New Port Richey ,FL
    Posts
    18,836
    Classical and Bill,

    After doing the load calc.,what experience "factors" leads you to increase or decrease the size ,and why.

    Plus what if you are wrong,and have oversizing or undersizing issues?

    Bill ,You have one case in all your years,any others?

    Classical,How many cases where M-J was wrong and why??
    Last edited by dash; 02-09-2008 at 08:50 PM.

  2. #41
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Houston Texas
    Posts
    6,327
    Dash I run four calcs at least on every house each with different variables. The variables are ductwork R-value attic insulation R-value infiltration factor. This way I know what the options are depending on what the customer is going to do. If they have the R-value of the ductwork increased and the ducts sealed or they add insulation and/or have a radiant barrier installed.

    I also consider the lifestyle of the customer, if they entertain frequently I consider that if they have numerous children that are going to be having friends over and the doors open all the time. Do they have lots of trees that are not in the load equation there are just some variables that are not black and white that experience must dictate your choice.

    For instance I have a house that starts Tuesday the load is 52,950. No 4-ton unit will keep up on a 93+ day. So my options are a 5-ton 2-stage unit or a 15 SEER condenser with a 4-ton rated evaporator coil. I can go with a 4-ton with an oversized 5-ton coil with a caveat that the HO install solar screens on all east and west windows.

    If we were to strip the ductwork seal it and wrap with new R-8 insulation the load drops to 41,000. The ductwork is snap lok that is 30 years old and it is in excellent condition w/R-4 insulation. The cost to do a strip and reseal is cost prohibative when held up against the ROI.

    These people have two teenagers it is a two story home with loys of trees covering the northern and southern exposures. The HO plans on upgrading the windows but not for several years.

    Fortunately the HO listened to what I had to say and spent the additional money and went with a new Evolution system.

    This is what I mean by needing experience and not just going by what they load calc spits out.

  3. #42
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Office and warehouse in both Crystal River & New Port Richey ,FL
    Posts
    18,836
    Quote Originally Posted by classical View Post
    Dash I run four calcs at least on every house each with different variables. The variables are ductwork R-value attic insulation R-value infiltration factor. This way I know what the options are depending on what the customer is going to do. If they have the R-value of the ductwork increased and the ducts sealed or they add insulation and/or have a radiant barrier installed.

    I also consider the lifestyle of the customer, if they entertain frequently I consider that if they have numerous children that are going to be having friends over and the doors open all the time. Do they have lots of trees that are not in the load equation there are just some variables that are not black and white that experience must dictate your choice.

    For instance I have a house that starts Tuesday the load is 52,950. No 4-ton unit will keep up on a 93+ day. So my options are a 5-ton 2-stage unit or a 15 SEER condenser with a 4-ton rated evaporator coil. I can go with a 4-ton with an oversized 5-ton coil with a caveat that the HO install solar screens on all east and west windows.

    If we were to strip the ductwork seal it and wrap with new R-8 insulation the load drops to 41,000. The ductwork is snap lok that is 30 years old and it is in excellent condition w/R-4 insulation. The cost to do a strip and reseal is cost prohibative when held up against the ROI.

    These people have two teenagers it is a two story home with loys of trees covering the northern and southern exposures. The HO plans on upgrading the windows but not for several years.

    Fortunately the HO listened to what I had to say and spent the additional money and went with a new Evolution system.

    This is what I mean by needing experience and not just going by what they load calc spits out.
    That makes a lot more sense then Mr Bills mystery of needing an extra ton.

    It also has a basis in Man. J,tree shading,entertaining,etc..

    Thanks for the clarification.

  4. #43
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Longview,TX.
    Posts
    83
    We've always changed the filter every 30 days. We change it that often because if we put anything more restrictive than a cheap fiberglass filter in there, the damn thing freezes up.
    You probably have airflow problems,probably in the duct system and will really have airflow problems if they install a four ton without finding out what's wrong.

    any of that popcorn left?

  5. #44
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Office and warehouse in both Crystal River & New Port Richey ,FL
    Posts
    18,836
    Quote:
    We've always changed the filter every 30 days. We change it that often because if we put anything more restrictive than a cheap fiberglass filter in there, the damn thing freezes up.

    You probably have airflow problems,probably in the duct system and will really have airflow problems if they install a four ton without finding out what's wrong.

    Definately an issue that should be addressed along with the replacement of the old system!!

  6. #45
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    56
    Quote Originally Posted by etex211 View Post
    6. Very large Lennox/Maytag dealership in a town 35 miles away: Contacted them late this afternoon, expecting to hear from someone Monday.

    Dealer 6 just sold me a system. He contacted me before 8:00 this morning and was in my home at 8:30. He asked questions. He answered my questions. He addressed all of my concerns. He did a heat load calculation. He got the same answer as dealer 1, who also did somewhat of a heat load calculation, 3 ton. All of the shoot from the hip guys said 4 ton.

    Dealer 6 is the only dealer that took a look at every room of my house and took notes. He is also the only dealer that took the cover off of my existing air handler to take a look inside.

    The other thing that I like about dealer 6 is that the guy that sold me the system will also be the guy to install the system. Yes, he works for a large company, but he will give me the kind of one on one service that a small company offers.

    My new top of the line Maytag Heat Pump will be installed tomorrow. The price that I am paying is one of the highest prices that I was quoted, but this dealership got the job because they gave me the most confidence that they'll take care of me.

  7. #46
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Houston Texas
    Posts
    6,327
    Very glad to hear it both for you and the gentleman that garnered your trust and business.

    Let this be a lesson to others being through and thoughtful with your contacts turns them into a customr and follow through will turn hem into a cheerleading customer.

    Etek I now assume that you will become a cheerleader for this company. I guess it also means that my fishing trip to Lake FOrk is off.

  8. #47
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    56
    The clock on dealer 5 now sits at 3 business days with no return phone call.

    Question: Why make an initial contact with a customer if you're not going to bother to return any of the subsequent phone calls?

    I was actually ready to buy from those folks, but the lack of a return phone call killed the deal.

  9. #48
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    56
    Quote Originally Posted by classical View Post
    Etek I now assume that you will become a cheerleader for this company. I guess it also means that my fishing trip to Lake FOrk is off.

    You bet I will. I'll tell everyone that I know about the great experience that I've had with dealer 6.

    I cross Fork nearly every day. When you get ready to come this way let me know and I'll buy you a drink at East Fork or something. It's the least I can do. You've been a big help in this thread.

  10. #49
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Houston Texas
    Posts
    6,327
    Thank you kindly!

    Please keep us aprised of how the job goes.

  11. #50
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Toledo, Ohio, United States
    Posts
    12,921
    Twilli wouldn't waste his time running manual J until the customer is ready to commit. There isn't that much difference in price between units.

    Twilli is now recommending the Coleman Infinity system.
    No Heat No Cool You need Action Fast

  12. #51
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    89
    get out of that city and state FAST!

  13. #52
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    39
    Quote Originally Posted by etex211 View Post
    The clock on dealer 5 now sits at 3 business days with no return phone call.

    Question: Why make an initial contact with a customer if you're not going to bother to return any of the subsequent phone calls?

    I was actually ready to buy from those folks, but the lack of a return phone call killed the deal.
    I don't understand this. I called a number of contractors and told them I wanted to purchase a new system. I didn't even get calls from some of them. By most accounts, this is the slow time of the year for them. If they can't call you back for a couple of grand at a slow time, why would I trust them to come check my equipment out when it dies at an inconvenient time?

    You can't call me back, you don't get my business.

    Congrats on the new system. Let us know how it works out.

    The Earl

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