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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    4

    Trane Dual Fuel System

    I have a Trane dual fuel system which was improperly installed in my new construction. My installer, for all intents and purposes has disappeared (how I'm dealing with that is a story for a different thread though).

    Here is what I have
    Downstairs:
    • Trane XL16i heat pump 5 ton
    • Trane 120K BTU XL90


    Upstairs:
    • Trane XL16i heat pump 3 ton
    • Trane 80K BTU XL90


    Last winter my installer got as far as having the gas furnaces hooked up all of the upstairs supply and returns finished however they are inadequate. The downstairs returns are not finished most of the supply ductwork is finished and seems to be adequate. This is the point when my installer disappeared. I was left with the 2 heat pumps not functioning they where set in place the line sets ran bun not hooked up. Winter of 06-07 we ran the gas heat only and it did a pretty good job of keeping the house warm the house is about 4500 sq ft and is very open not having the returns plumbed did not seem to be to big of a problem as the basement is not finished and the door way from the main floor to the basement seemed to be providing enough circulation to keep the house comfortable. At the beginning of summer 07 I hired another local Trane dealer to finish the heat pump install mainly to get the AC working he re-wired the thermostats and had everything working for heat as well as AC. He was not interested in finishing the rest of the job nor would guarantee any work that he did that day. So I now have both heat pumps working and the downstairs system kept the downstairs cool but the upstairs system is completely inadequate in terms of cooling. The Trane dealer thought that the size and number of the supply vents were to small.

    This winter is my first winter with my heat pumps and I would like to know if they are operating properly. Here is what I am noticing:

    • During Mild temperatures the furnace will run with heat pump and it will kick on and off as necessary.
    • During Cold temperatures the furnace will run constantly with the heat pump never shutting off. This really dries the house out. I believe I notice the blower changing speeds at times
    • When its really cold the gas furnace kicks in and the blower runs on high and most if not all of the time the heat pump is still running.



    Here are my questions.

    1. Should the heat pump and gas furnace run simultaneously?
    2. Should my thermostat indicate that it has switched over to GAS (its an aprilaire programmable not sure of the model )?
    3. Should my System Run all of the time with out kicking off in cold weather?
    4. For that matter should it run all the time in hot weather (In AC mode)with out kicking off?


    Thanks

    Josh

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Elkton, MD
    Posts
    141
    1) Depending on the wiring scheme the furnace may operate with the heat pump during defrost and this is normal. The furnace and heat pump should not operate together during normal operation.
    2) I am not familiar with Aprilaire comfort controls.
    3&4) The system will operate for longer periods during heat pump mode than a conventional single stage system. This is caused by the reduction in capacity (67%)during first stage operation in the heat pump mode. I highly suggest having an outdoor thermostat installed that will revert to provide only gas heat below the balance point of the heat pump. The balance point can only be determined if you have the results of the heat load calculation that determined the capacity of the equipment installed.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Northern VA 38 degrees N by 76 degrees W
    Posts
    5,058
    Quote Originally Posted by JMSTA View Post
    I have a Trane dual fuel system which was improperly installed in my new construction. My installer, for all intents and purposes has disappeared (how I'm dealing with that is a story for a different thread though).

    Here is what I have
    Downstairs:
    • Trane XL16i heat pump 5 ton
    • Trane 120K BTU XL90


    Upstairs:
    • Trane XL16i heat pump 3 ton
    • Trane 80K BTU XL90


    Last winter my installer got as far as having the gas furnaces hooked up all of the upstairs supply and returns finished however they are inadequate. The downstairs returns are not finished most of the supply ductwork is finished and seems to be adequate. This is the point when my installer disappeared. I was left with the 2 heat pumps not functioning they where set in place the line sets ran bun not hooked up. Winter of 06-07 we ran the gas heat only and it did a pretty good job of keeping the house warm the house is about 4500 sq ft and is very open not having the returns plumbed did not seem to be to big of a problem as the basement is not finished and the door way from the main floor to the basement seemed to be providing enough circulation to keep the house comfortable. At the beginning of summer 07 I hired another local Trane dealer to finish the heat pump install mainly to get the AC working he re-wired the thermostats and had everything working for heat as well as AC. He was not interested in finishing the rest of the job nor would guarantee any work that he did that day. So I now have both heat pumps working and the downstairs system kept the downstairs cool but the upstairs system is completely inadequate in terms of cooling. The Trane dealer thought that the size and number of the supply vents were to small.

    This winter is my first winter with my heat pumps and I would like to know if they are operating properly. Here is what I am noticing:

    • During Mild temperatures the furnace will run with heat pump and it will kick on and off as necessary.
    • During Cold temperatures the furnace will run constantly with the heat pump never shutting off. This really dries the house out. I believe I notice the blower changing speeds at times
    • When its really cold the gas furnace kicks in and the blower runs on high and most if not all of the time the heat pump is still running.



    Here are my questions.

    1. Should the heat pump and gas furnace run simultaneously?
    2. Should my thermostat indicate that it has switched over to GAS (its an aprilaire programmable not sure of the model )?
    3. Should my System Run all of the time with out kicking off in cold weather?
    4. For that matter should it run all the time in hot weather (In AC mode)with out kicking off?


    Thanks

    Josh
    Your heat pump and furnace should not be running simultainiously.

    I would shut off one of them before you have a major failure.


    Find out who your dealer purchased the equipment from. They picked him as a Trane dealer they are responsible for his commitments.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    The South
    Posts
    2,148
    JMSTA

    One of your biggest problems is incompatible equipment. The XL16i heat pumps require a var spd blower. You need the XV series var spd gas furnace, not the XL series gas furnace. Obviously, you have other issues as well. I would call Trane direct and get them involved to straighten out your mess.

    IMO

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Northern VA 38 degrees N by 76 degrees W
    Posts
    5,058
    Quote Originally Posted by tigerdunes View Post
    JMSTA

    One of your biggest problems is incompatible equipment. The XL16i heat pumps require a var spd blower. You need the XV series var spd gas furnace, not the XL series gas furnace. Obviously, you have other issues as well. I would call Trane direct and get them involved to straighten out your mess.

    IMO
    Goog catch TD I whent straight to the symptoms.

    They need to go to Trane file a consumer complaint and the distributor will be liable for the 2 year dealer obligation. If he doesn't have the XV the second dealer is also in deep.

    Where is the home located?
    Last edited by second opinion; 02-07-2008 at 01:57 PM.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    4
    Hi thanks for the quick replies.. I am dealing with the installer issues and hopefully will have a resolution or at least more info soon. I was my own GC for this house and every other aspect of the project from construction to dealing with the bank went extremely well. So trying to see the cup as half full I will say that I'm lucky that this was the only major trouble I ran into.

    There is an ODT installed in both heat pumps I'm not sure whether it is hooked up correctly or not.

    In the meantime until I get the installer issue dealt with.

    1. Is there away that I can tell at what temperature the gas furnace is set to come on. currently it does not seem to come on unless it dips down into the low 30s
    2. Am i doing any damage to my heat pump by running it with the XL furnace instead of the XV or is it just a matter of efficiency?


    I must say for the most part the house is very comfortable in the winter with the exception of it being very dry. Summer is a different story though.


    Thanks again for all of your help.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    The South
    Posts
    2,148
    JMSTA

    You have not provided enough information for one to say how the HP and gas furnace changeover takes place much less at what temperature. You need an experienced Trane dealer comfort specialist to look into this.

    I would not run the HPs on heat or cool until your issues are sorted out. For now, only run the furnace. Any experienced Trane dealer knows that the XL16i heat pumps require the matching var speed blower either from a var speed air handler or a var speed furnace.

    I doubt that the AprilAire stat is correct. It should be changed out to one of the following:

    1.Honeywell Vision Pro IAQ
    2.The New Trane XL900(which is supposed to be same as the above IAQ)
    3.Trane TCon802 or 803

    Just to be clear, while this forum has excellent information, it is going to take a Trane expert to correct all your issues. I really can't say if there is any damage to the HPs.

    IMO

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Morehead City, North Carolina
    Posts
    174
    The TCONT402 also does dual fuel. Doesn't the 16xli have a two step compressor? I know the ones we install do now but these units sound a couple of years old. If so the gas furnace would need to be third stage of heat.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    oregon
    Posts
    885
    Quote Originally Posted by JMSTA View Post
    Hi thanks for the quick replies.. I am dealing with the installer issues and hopefully will have a resolution or at least more info soon. I was my own GC for this house and every other aspect of the project from construction to dealing with the bank went extremely well. So trying to see the cup as half full I will say that I'm lucky that this was the only major trouble I ran into.

    There is an ODT installed in both heat pumps I'm not sure whether it is hooked up correctly or not.

    In the meantime until I get the installer issue dealt with.

    1. Is there away that I can tell at what temperature the gas furnace is set to come on. currently it does not seem to come on unless it dips down into the low 30s
    2. Am i doing any damage to my heat pump by running it with the XL furnace instead of the XV or is it just a matter of efficiency?


    I must say for the most part the house is very comfortable in the winter with the exception of it being very dry. Summer is a different story though.


    Thanks again for all of your help.
    Was your heating guy doing a side job or was he a licensed contractor? It does not sound like an install done by a trained installer. Totaly inapropriate system match up. You are going to kill your outdoor units by running them at the same time as the furnace. Unless it is in defrost.
    Last edited by geodude; 02-07-2008 at 07:31 PM.
    Genius = The guy who can do anything...except make a living!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    oregon
    Posts
    885
    Quote Originally Posted by capecool View Post
    The TCONT402 also does dual fuel. Doesn't the 16xli have a two step compressor? I know the ones we install do now but these units sound a couple of years old. If so the gas furnace would need to be third stage of heat.
    XL16i is a two stage scroll type compressor, always has been. I recommend the pro 9000 IAQ or the tcont803 Both HAVE to have the od sensor if you do not use the external fossil fuel control. I would recommend the IAQ if I had no other choice.
    Genius = The guy who can do anything...except make a living!

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    4
    Thanks I understand once I get everything settled with this installer I plan to get a professional in to fix things right. Also I Checked the furnace when I got home it is an XV and not an XL and the thermostat is an Aprilaire 8570.



    Thanks,
    Josh
    Last edited by JMSTA; 02-07-2008 at 08:07 PM.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    oregon
    Posts
    885
    so, was it a side job for the installer?
    Genius = The guy who can do anything...except make a living!

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    4
    The guy had just started his HVAC business had been in business for about 6 months. He had been working for a company that did commercial installs for years. He had some pretty good references and beyond the references he offered I called around to the local plumbing and heating distributors and asked about him all came back pretty positive. Turns out he ended up getting a job with company in a different state and effectively quit on my job. For a while he was making an attempt to get someone local to finish up his work but it never happened.

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