How much leakage requires removal from service.....R-22 WSHP

[Mikeylikesit]

Is there some threshold at which a leaking unit must be removed from service?

I have a water source heat pump which is leaking its charge (into the water, we presume as we cannot find a leak anywhere else). It holds 2.6# and we are having to put 2# into this thing, now on a weekly basis....

the bid packages are out on the street, but in a bureaucracy like I work in, its still going to be a month or so before we can get a replacement.

I am (sort of) hoping there is some regulation...It might give me some leverage with the contract department.....since it's cooling their space.

Thanks!

[jtrammel]

There's no limit, you can charge it everyday if you want but at some point you could've bought a new system with what you've spent on refrigerant.

[socotech]

I believe it's gotta hold at least 50 lbs per circuit before EPA gets involved.


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[Dchappa21]

The epa would disagree

[Dchappa21]

I think im wrong. I think it needs to have more than 50 pounds in it for them to care.

[socotech]

See trigger rates on page B1

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/608/...d/guidance.pdf



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[socotech]

We've been dealing with a lot of this lately. Even retrofitting to 407c.


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[Rane69]

u dont have to " guess its the heat exchanger" you can prove this with a sniffer

[Rane69]

2# a week wow time to replace or repair Thats a good size leak

[R123]

it might give me some leverage with the contract department.....since it's cooling their space....

Thanks!

If the contract department is the bureaucracy that is causing a month delay in replacing worn out equipment, why would want it to be pushed through faster than normal when it serves their office space??? I would follow their normal procedures and leave them without air for a month....

[Mikeylikesit]

thanks all.

the delay is because of the fiscal year thing, getting PO's right now is even more complicated because we just went live on a new purchasing system....yes, on the same day as the fiscal new year. UGH!

So, how do I use the sniffer in water?

[BALloyd]

You need to find the drain for the water if it is an open loop. If it is leaking your sniffer will go crazy in the air around the drain.

[Mikeylikesit]

Closed loop......but I could pull a sample. Had not thought of that, as its a huge loop with 70+ units on it.....

thanks!

[coolerik]

Cant u valve it off, drain the unit, unhook piping and stick yer sniffer in? Thats what I do, I dont think a sample of the waters gonna tell u anything.

[mr_guy]

If over 50 pounds of charge per circuit, 15% annual leak rate for ac and 35% for refrigeration and industrial processes. Per the epa

[Birmingham]

Cant u valve it off, drain the unit, unhook piping and stick yer sniffer in? Thats what I do, I dont think a sample of the waters gonna tell u anything.

Do this then tape a rubber glove over the water pipe inlet and watch it inflate the glove. gives the customer a 100% visual that its leaking.

[SouthTex]

Do an isolation, I have seen H10 pick up a leak from clorine that utilities inject into water systems from a water fountain

[ICanHas]

What's said in this thread is generally correct.

Then, I saw your location is "Soudern Kal-e-phone-e-ya" and I realized regular rules don't apply. For all intents and purposes, that place is like another country and this is no exception. It looks like you've got two weeks to fix it.

Everything is regarded as carcinogenic in that state.
Many products are illegal in that state.

Is there anything in your facility that holds over 50 lbs of "high GWP" refrigerant? It looks like you need to become registered. The language is different from the EPA. It does not say that you can let it leak all you want. Just operating one equipment with over 50 lbs of "any refrigerant with over 150 GWP" in that special political subdivision apparently triggers a requirement to fix leaks regardless of charge amount. It also appears that you need a certification to buy 134a.

Stuff like this is probably a high priority environmental crime of media interest in CA if they figured out about it.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/cc/rmp/rmp.htm
http://www.arb.ca.gov/cc/rmp/RMP_Service_FAQ.pdf

[BBeerme]

It also appears that you need a certification to buy 134a.

In northern CA, anyone can go into any auto store and buy 134a. Of course, it's a lot more pricey than what we pay at the wholesalers.

Stuff like this is probably a high priority environmental crime of media interest in CA if they figured out about it.

LOL, yeah, for some reason we attract all of the whacko's. I'm guessing it's because of all of the government handouts and entitlement programs. Something to do with the lowest common denominator, maybe(?).

[ICanHas]

In northern CA, anyone can go into any auto store and buy 134a. Of course, it's a lot more pricey than what we pay at the wholesalers.

Did you read up about those? They're resealable cans like spray bottles and there's a $10 deposit on them. Retailers have to pay the deposit to the wholesaler and buyers must pay deposit to retailer.

Buyer takes unused portions back to the store with a receipt to get the deposit back. Retailers send them back to the wholesaler to get their deposit back and unused portions supposedly get reclaimed.

What you said makes sense. Here's what I gathered: Larger than 2 lbs, EPA card required. Even if they're under 2 lbs, FEDERAL law restricts ozone depleting refrigerants and it doesn't let you buy anything bigger than 2 lbs or any ozone depeting refrigerants regardless of size without certifications.

§ 95391. Prohibitions.

(a) Prohibitions. On or after January 1, 2011, no person shall sell, supply, offer for sale, or distribute any high-GWP refrigerant for use as a refrigerant, unless for reclamation or destruction, in a container with a refrigerant capacity of two pounds or greater unless:

(1) The buyer is a certified technician pursuant to Title 40 of the Code of Federal Regulations, Part 82, §82.40 or §82.161; or (so on and on and on....)

I'm no lawyer and I take no responsibility for misreading your state's wacko rules.

So, what I'm seeing is that R-134a and 410A in large tanks require license in CA, because they're > 2 lbs. R-22 and pound cans of F12 still requires a license, because of the requirements at the federal level.

The EPA regulates at the federal level ozone depleting substances, substitutes for them, or "substitute for substitute of ozone depleting refrigerant" when the original is still available.

R-22/12: regulated. Offering of products as replacement for R22: regulated. 407C, or MO99 are regulated in marketing as replacement to R22. since R22/R12 is still available, substitutes for approved substitute of R22/R12 are still subject to regulations.

If you marketing people had your idea (LED mercury free) light bulb light up about peddling hydrocarbon explosive gases in California just because HC isn't excluded by state law, hold up.

The feds still regulate them as above. On more local level, AHJ prohibits them through through International Mechanical Code IMC even if the Air Resource Board doesn't mention it.

There's essentially no practical legal use for hydrocarbon in air conditioning system in the US.