what will 14 seer units mean to cost?

[ICanHas]

The trend is compartmentalization. Only engineers and a handful of high level techs will know how it really works. Everything else will be a low wage plug and play job.

Unplug and unplay is generally 20x harder, riskier and time consuming. You know those damn push-in snap fittings widely used in appliances, cars and electronics. They push push and snap in place. Separating them out without breaking those tabs is quite a chore if you can do it at all.

These methods decreases the assembly cost. Increases service cost and it takes less and less repairs before the equipment is write off.

Most common problems/solutions for each model can be found online buy your part and replace.

Taking it apart is the issue. Putting it back together is almost always easier contrary to common beliefs.

No special skills required, the auto repair industry is getting "dumbed down" like the rest of the repair industry. On the flip side common sense isn't so common, there are less people out there with basic mechanical knowledge. Our jobs aren't going anywhere, especially on the commercial side.

Air conditioner outside machine electronic motor driver would be something they'd have to start stocking at appliance parts store for homeowners given how failure prone they're
There's no contactors/capacitors for the gravy job only resi techs.

[bobster]

On the mpg thing i agree there is no reason for someone to drive a hummer, however my truck gets single digit fuel numbers, i have no choice i do a mixture of service and install am a small company and cant afford multiple trucks.

X2

[klee7013]

I've seen lots of apartment Firstco style ceiling air handlers. Many are the originals from the 80's, the condenser gets swapped with R22 dry units every time. End the production of R22 dry units and you end the mismatched systems. Min SEER requirements are useless until they end the sale of R22 dry units.

It would to a point. But i got a 410a heat pump on a 2000ish a/h let me go check the year 2003. We matched the piston as close as possible. Been running for almost 2 years. We havent done it at anybodys house and wont unless the coil has been tested for 410a pressures.

A distributor near us wanted to try it and their tech support guy(who use to work for us) came and put it in.

[ga-hvac-tech]

From what I hear off the record... dry units may start to fade at the end of 2014... and when SEER goes up... there are no plans I have heard for higher SEER dry units.

[54regcab]

From what I hear off the record... dry units may start to fade at the end of 2014... and when SEER goes up... there are no plans I have heard for higher SEER dry units.

Keep in mind dry units are a "repair part" and don't have to meet min SEER requirements...

[ga-hvac-tech]

Keep in mind dry units are a "repair part" and don't have to meet min SEER requirements...

True...

However it would be a 'convenient time' for the industry to discontinue them... or for the EPA to close the loophole.

Regardless... what I hear is the dry units are going away when the higher SEER mandate goes into effect.

[CHA_2007]

The American standard 20 seer units we are putting out are pretty scary from a service standpoint.

Only will work with the matching comfort control, the condensor no longer has a contactor it's all computer and the "drive" is big bucks to replace if it goes bad and you have to do the checklist with AS over the phone before they will even think about sending you a warranty. Even after you get warranty you don't get credit until it tests bad at their lab.

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I know its an old post but, i dont like these high seer units. Got a bunch of stuff on them thats gonna give trouble! Say an customer has one and theyve got health problems. Its on a friday hot as almighty and the board is bad, no cooling. you dont have another one. What now ? You gonna make them wait until monday-wednesday until you can get a board. Not me I would rewire that bad boy to a standard unit. With contactors, relays, capacitors the whole nine yards if i had to. To get them some air so they wouldnt suffer. Im not pointing u out in general but why would anyone buy something like this in the first place. Sorry seen the post and needed to vent!

[r-290]

Not much, if you are losing half of that in the ducts.

The building codes here are changing. running ducts in open attics will be a thing of the past pretty quick on new homes.

They are making rules so the duct work needs to under the insulation envelope.

The are making the new homes with special trusses that the ducts will run in a center cavity and its inside the insulation envelope.

[54regcab]

High SEER units don't save any money on utility bills compared to 14-16 SEER mid efficiency units. High SEER units are almost always oversized which takes away much of the efficiency advantages. Look at the EER ratings with real AHRI match ups, you will find there is little difference between high and mid SEER units. EER (15 degree indoor to outdoor difference) is what matters on utility bills, not SALES EER (2 degree difference indoor/outdoor).

Want to REALLY save energy? Get equipment/ductwork into conditioned space. Tighten up the house/ductwork and downsize the HVAC system. Smaller units keep more stable temps, dehumidify better, and run quieter in addition to using less power. The "up to" SEER ratings are given to the smaller systems, and they also tend to have the best EER's on AHRI matchups.

[Glennhvac]

I know its an old post but, i dont like these high seer units. Got a bunch of stuff on them thats gonna give trouble! Say an customer has one and theyve got health problems. Its on a friday hot as almighty and the board is bad, no cooling. you dont have another one. What now ? You gonna make them wait until monday-wednesday until you can get a board. Not me I would rewire that bad boy to a standard unit. With contactors, relays, capacitors the whole nine yards if i had to. To get them some air so they wouldnt suffer. Im not pointing u out in general but why would anyone buy something like this in the first place. Sorry seen the post and needed to vent!

Vent on! I agree. I steer clear of all of that moducrap on my installations. It's easy to sell that stuff if the people want to pay and YOU don't have to be the one trying to get them going at 2 a/m Saturday. One out of warranty part alone can eat up decades worth of energy savings assuming they would ever recoup that money in the first place even without a problem.

[ICanHas]

Something I overlooked until now... see this thread:
http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread....have-a-filiter


If ECM and X-13 will become the de-facto motor, there's an additional concern that could raise the cost slightly.

Things like NOx, HC, CO emissions do not matter if only a few cars are being driven in a small area. As cars became common and they congregate a small area, smog issues became apparent, so now catalytic converter is mandatory.

ECM and X-13 uses components called ' power electronics ' that creates the electrical equivalent of such pollution. If it comes down to almost all unit being fitted with ECM, it may become necessary to power line pollution prevention feature to prevent feeder power (power lies) from becoming distorted and crooked. This is called harmonics filter and it will likely add a few bucks.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Something I overlooked until now... see this thread:
http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread....have-a-filiter


If ECM and X-13 will become the de-facto motor, there's an additional concern that could raise the cost slightly.

Things like NOx, HC, CO emissions do not matter if only a few cars are being driven in a small area. As cars became common and they congregate a small area, smog issues became apparent, so now catalytic converter is mandatory.

ECM and X-13 uses components called ' power electronics ' that creates the electrical equivalent of such pollution. If it comes down to almost all unit being fitted with ECM, it may become necessary to power line pollution prevention feature to prevent feeder power (power lies) from becoming distorted and crooked. This is called harmonics filter and it will likely add a few bucks.

Not arguing, however can you site link(s) to that idea a circuit board causes NOX or HC or CO pollution... sounds like GW/GC/CC stuff (political cr*p) to me.

[54regcab]

The bigger deal is all this fancy stuff doesn't save money on utility costs. Tighter houses amd smaller units are what really saves $$$.

[udarrell]

The bigger deal is all this fancy stuff doesn't save money on utility costs. Tighter houses and smaller units are what really saves $$$.

Amen to that...

[ICanHas]

Not arguing, however can you site link(s) to that idea a circuit board causes NOX or HC or CO pollution... sounds like GW/GC/CC stuff (political cr*p) to me.

It doesn't... I'm just making an analogous connection to automotive emission control catalytic converter.

Catalytic converters only became a necessity, because there will be a lot of cars running at the same time side by side in the metro area that creates localized pollution which results in a smog.

If we only had very few cars, catalytic converter is rather useless. Right now, harmonic problems from ECM haven't added up to the point of total power quality pollution being bad yet.

[54regcab]

It doesn't... I'm just making an analogous connection to automotive emission control catalytic converter.

Catalytic converters only became a necessity, because there will be a lot of cars running at the same time side by side in the metro area that creates localized pollution which results in a smog.

If we only had very few cars, catalytic converter is rather useless. Right now, harmonic problems from ECM haven't added up to the point of total power quality pollution being bad yet.

It's going to take something bigger than a few blower motors to cause an issue. SMPS has been used in TV's and most electronics for decades. When VFD compressors become commonplace I might can see it. I dont' see it happening until manufacturers have exhausted other options for increasing that SALES EER number.

[jtrammel]

I know its an old post but, i dont like these high seer units. Got a bunch of stuff on them thats gonna give trouble! Say an customer has one and theyve got health problems. Its on a friday hot as almighty and the board is bad, no cooling. you dont have another one. What now ? You gonna make them wait until monday-wednesday until you can get a board. Not me I would rewire that bad boy to a standard unit. With contactors, relays, capacitors the whole nine yards if i had to. To get them some air so they wouldnt suffer. Im not pointing u out in general but why would anyone buy something like this in the first place. Sorry seen the post and needed to vent!

There's no way to make an inverter compressor run without an inverter board. I don't care how many relays and contactor you add. I'm the king of rigging stuff up to get through the weekend but short of swapping out the condenser and thermostat and rewiring the low volt it ain't gonna happen. Stick a couple window shakers in and order a board.

[ga-hvac-tech]

It doesn't... I'm just making an analogous connection to automotive emission control catalytic converter.

Catalytic converters only became a necessity, because there will be a lot of cars running at the same time side by side in the metro area that creates localized pollution which results in a smog.

If we only had very few cars, catalytic converter is rather useless. Right now, harmonic problems from ECM haven't added up to the point of total power quality pollution being bad yet.

As I understand it... this is why there is a 'choke' coil on the AC power supply... to soften the RF of the motor.

The FCC has regulated EM radiation since before most of us were born... I am sure GE/Regal-Beloit had to get their stuff approved before it went into production.

[pony]

Sorry didnt read the long post,condenser can be 13 seer with variable speed air handler make it 14 seer!hope i am correct!

[MisterFixer]

It's all pure madness just keeping up with the rules