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  1. #105
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    Well,you can call it anything you like if the word arrogant fits in your mind, then God bless you, you go for it.

    But frankly, I don't want any part of people getting hurt because they don't have the training necessary to do what's being shown to them online.

    Now,as far as flying is concerned I do know exactly what I'm talking about because I knew those people who are being supported by their parents. Aviation is a VERY small community. Embry Riddle is an extremely expensive university to go to because of the cost of flying, and these kids all come from homes where they can take art history or aviation, and not have to worry about working, and trust me, the world of flying exists as it is because there is sufficient number of kids coming in who dont have to live off their own pursuits. Many last a few years, but only 10% of them will ever crack open a mic in a 777 and say, "this is your captain speaking."

    Jealous? No. Some of them might have been jealous of me, though.


    Mom and dad support them until they get their first flying job which pays them probably around 19 thousand a year, and they continue giving them money for the next 10 to 15 years in case they ever make it to a fifty thousand dollar a year job. That's the nature of aviation. Big on promises, low on reality.

    As I look back on this thread, I am forced to worry about what our nation will become in thirty years or so.
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

    RSES CMS, HVAC Electrical Specialist

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  2. #106
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    Oct 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by timebuilder View Post
    Mom and dad support them until they get their first flying job which pays them probably around 19 thousand a year, and they continue giving them money for the next 10 to 15 years in case they ever make it to a fifty thousand dollar a year job. That's the nature of aviation. Big on promises, low on reality.

    As I look back on this thread, I am forced to worry about what our nation will become in thirty years or so.
    Your numbers are way off..

    10-15 years to make $50k? Unless they have zero ambition and start over, repeatedly, at first year pay on purpose.

    Over the next couple years the only people that will still be at the commuters are the unhirables, the ones with DUIs, or multiple checkride failures.

    I don't doubt there aren't some folks still living at home. I met two in my years at my old commuter. One an F/O the other other a CA taking care of his elderly parents.

    Times are different. CFI's are in demand, they offer (decent) salary now. Commuters are offering signing bonuses. Upgrades are in the 12 month range at the growing companies. Contracts are decent after the Comair strike in 2001. Hiring at the major level has been consistent since about 2010, and is really starting to take off again after age 60->65 stopped hiring in 2008.

  3. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by pipsters View Post
    Your numbers are way off..

    10-15 years to make $50k? Unless they have zero ambition and start over, repeatedly, at first year pay on purpose.

    Over the next couple years the only people that will still be at the commuters are the unhirables, the ones with DUIs, or multiple checkride failures.

    I don't doubt there aren't some folks still living at home. I met two in my years at my old commuter. One an F/O the other other a CA taking care of his elderly parents.

    Times are different. CFI's are in demand, they offer (decent) salary now. Commuters are offering signing bonuses. Upgrades are in the 12 month range at the growing companies. Contracts are decent after the Comair strike in 2001. Hiring at the major level has been consistent since about 2010, and is really starting to take off again after age 60->65 stopped hiring in 2008.
    No, I think you need to talk with more young pilots.

    The Dash-8 crash near Buffalo.. how much did the FO make? How many years did the captain have...? How much was he making flying for Colgan?

    CFI's are not in demand.

    There are never enough CFI jobs to employ all of the CFI's being cranked out by places like Delta Connection. In 2002, they were paying their instructors $7.25 per hour. I know that because I was invited down to Sanford to interview as a lead instructor. I made more teaching instrument and multi at my little Class D airport. Almost three times more. Even a friend who was chief pilot at Flight Safety could not pay a decent wage. I guess all that money is used to pay to keep the level D sims working.

    Pilots are viewed as people they don't have to pay, because the pay is supposed to be the experience. I don't see that changing anytime soon, especially with all the foreign pilots you will see in US-livery cockpits in the coming years.

    Just like tech support.

    Air, Inc used to claim that there were tens of thousands of pilots just waiting to retire from the big carriers, and that we should all jump in now, and make big money (that's what they implied.)

    As I once told Rod Machado, there is never a pilot shortage. There is only a shortage of pilots who will work for the wage being offered.

    I see the same dynamic in play in HVAC. When I'm gone from the filed, someone on a work visa will be taking my place. And, the job of an American. It will happen in aviation, too.

    So, what do young guys have to do? They have to share multi time, something I deplored. In fact, it was because I was against "time building" schemes that I got my user name. While the FAA requires "time," being a good pilot requires skill. Maybe you know some guys who seem to have flown their first hour 1,000 times.

    No one else tells what you are saying, so you'll forgive me if I am skeptical. When the IRS cracked down on treating instructors as 1099 contractors, I know of dozens of flight schools that closed their doors, leaving only the plane-owner instructor and the over the fence guys beside the pilot mills. No one wants an instructor to be an employee if they can in any way avoid it. It raises the cost too much. In fact, if I had to get all of my certificates and ratings today, I would not be able to earn enough to do it.

    The $100 hamburger is now the $800 hamburger.
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

    RSES CMS, HVAC Electrical Specialist

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  4. #108
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    Your benchmark for comparing CFI wages was Comair Academy? That place WAS a joke. I LIVED in Sanford and I didn't even attempt to get a job there. Their pay was a joke, I can't believe people actually worked there.

    I made $20/hr at my first place and it went up from there.

    Colgan crash...what did I say about the unhireables...the F/O interviewed at my old (well paying) commuter and was not hired. CA had multiple, multiple, multiple 121 check ride failures plus primary failures (FIVE in total!).

    Colgan offered me an interview I said no they still sent the paperwork and I didn't even bother to show up, that's how bad that place was!

    Across various industries there is going to be the good companies and the bad ones. Just like there are well paying HVAC companies, there are also bottom feeders that attract the unhireables from elsewhere.

    The company that bought Colgan is now Endeavor. To let you know how times have changed and how incredibly in demand pilots are, you get hired there and you flow to DAL - no interview, just flow.

    As for 1099 CFI's - that is the preferable way for some folks, because they can charge $40-$50/hr and keep it all. I worked at 3 schools and was never a 1099. My last gig even had full medical and 401k (I worked for MAPD). Great gig. Did 968 hours during my year there. Yes, time building is a requirement. It's known. Go someplace to get it done and rip the band aid off, is what I tell people.

    As for foreign pilots. Ha. I welcome them. Buddy of mine went to China and makes $20k monthly to fly an RJ. 3 year contract. Airbus guys are getting 30.

    I flew with plenty of young guys. When I left I was 32. When I upgraded to CA at my commuter I was 26. Flew with a lot of new hires.

  5. #109
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    Comair was indeed a benchmark. I made the same $20 you did at my little class D field. This is what these outfits think of the people that work so hard to get a place in the commercial firmament.

    So you see, what I am telling you is true. Colgan got the contract and hired those pilots because that is what they wanted to pay. It was a consistent wage with other commuters, too. Since I didn't know those pilots, and I refused to interview at Colgan, I have to take your word that you know something about them. Perhaps that is scuttlebutt. I'd be willing to bet the guy I know who retired from Continental as a senior captain doesn't know those details.

    Flight schools paid their instructors by 1099 because they COULD. When they couldn't, they folded. I knew a couple of DE's who did okay, but no one EVER told me they had a great CFI job. Not one.

    Now, if you are saying that all this has changed in the past 12 years, then I would no longer believe that than the idea that the MU-2 is a great airplane.

    You do tell a nice story, though.
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

    RSES CMS, HVAC Electrical Specialist

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  6. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by timebuilder View Post
    As I look back on this thread, I am forced to worry about what our nation will become in thirty years or so.
    Heh heh, reminds me of a somewhat famous quote:

    “Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”


    ― Socrates


    Life is really strange how, even though everything is changing, nothing really changes. I mean, the basics of humanity don't really change. Socrates said that over 2400 years ago.

    But regarding your quote above, I worry about what it has already become. Can you believe a man got elected president who said [and I have to paraphrase, but it's pretty close] he wanted to take our country down a notch or two so the third world countries would have a better chance to thrive. And he said that energy rates would necessarily rise to meet his other goals. Then he just got re-elected(?). Don't worry about thirty years from now, worry about today!

  7. #111
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    To put a bow on this, it's training.

    The Colgan flight didn't have enough training, in fact, the Canadian operators had much better training on the aircraft.

    Homeowners looking at youtube? How would anyone know what kind of training or ability they have? They might know how much they have. In fact, they might only THINK they have enough.

    Just like a lot of guys who left a smoking hole.

    So, how much of this trade should be on youtube?

    None.
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

    RSES CMS, HVAC Electrical Specialist

    AOP Forum Rules:







  8. #112
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    Oct 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by timebuilder View Post
    Comair was indeed a benchmark. I made the same $20 you did at my little class D field. This is what these outfits think of the people that work so hard to get a place in the commercial firmament.

    So you see, what I am telling you is true. Colgan got the contract and hired those pilots because that is what they wanted to pay. It was a consistent wage with other commuters, too. Since I didn't know those pilots, and I refused to interview at Colgan, I have to take your word that you know something about them. Perhaps that is scuttlebutt. I'd be willing to bet the guy I know who retired from Continental as a senior captain doesn't know those details.

    Flight schools paid their instructors by 1099 because they COULD. When they couldn't, they folded. I knew a couple of DE's who did okay, but no one EVER told me they had a great CFI job. Not one.

    Now, if you are saying that all this has changed in the past 12 years, then I would no longer believe that than the idea that the MU-2 is a great airplane.

    You do tell a nice story, though.
    2002 was a horrible year in aviation. Maybe you missed it but a certain event on 9/11/01 had a profound effect on the airlines. Most of the majors came out of that time period without their pensions, and earning half as much as they had been earning the year before. Pilot groups were slashed with one legacy halving its pilot group in particular. Others, furloughed thousands.

    I was doing my commercial then. But I knew aviation was cyclical. Giving up then was like selling when the stock market crashes.

    2008-2009 was a double whammy. Age 60 was moved to Age 65, which meant all the retirements happening now were postponed back then, combined with the huge run up in fuel prices and the economy crashing down, airlines were in survival mode. It was worse than 2002. I started looking for a way out even after upgrading, considering HVAC (always had a strong interest). By 2010 things were back to normal and profit was being had again.

    As far as pay goes, if you think Colgan was paying industry standard and base your thoughts and feelings on them, I can't help. I could point to the HVAC openings in my area paying $8/hr and say that all HVAC techs make close to min wage, would that be correct?

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