ReplyUsing illegal hydrocarbon to "save the environment" could come at the expense of people getting hurt, things getting burned and of course results in
and therefore
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Things just got real: FBI is investigating R22a HC refrigerant and seeking victims
The FBI launched a criminal investigation and victims' assistance on illegal flammable hydrocarbon refrigerants, which targets DIYers and homeowners, but often down play the flammability hazards. These refrigerants are made primarily of fuel gas propane, but it is not odorized to alert people of "gas smell". The problem lies in the way they down play the flammability so the people don't realize it's actually barbecue grill gas they're handling.
According to the FBI they're sold as" drop-in replacement, second generation, non-ozone depleting hydrocarbon" They're usually called "r22a" with an "a" The investigation is titled "Super-Freeze" but it covers all the look a like products such as ecofreeez EF22a, Frost 22a, Dura-Cool, Envirosafe ES22a and others.
Rural King store's Frost 22a
http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/vi...e-refrigerants
"Seeking Victims in the Matter of Super-Freeze 22a and Other Flammable Refrigerants
The FBI, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) - Criminal Investigation Division, and the U.S. Department of Transportation - Office of Inspector General are conducting an investigation into a flammable “refrigerant” sold as Super-Freeze 22a, Super-Freeze12a, Super-Freeze 134a, Enviro-Safe 22a, and R134a. These products have not been submitted to the EPA for review as alternative and accepted refrigerants.
If you have purchased any of the above refrigerants and/or received a letter notification from the FBI, you have been identified as a possible victim who may have unknowingly purchased flammable refrigerant.
This refrigerant product had been marketed as a drop-in replacement, second generation, non-ozone depleting hydrocarbon refrigerant. The target consumers were home owners and do-it yourselfers. The product could be purchased online and over the telephone by anyone; a refrigeration license was not required to make the purchase.
If a flammable refrigerant has been installed into your air conditioning system, call a licensed heating and air conditioning professional, and do not attempt to service the system yourself. If you suspect a leak, call your local fire department immediately. The flammable refrigerants are not believed to contain the “rotten eggs” smell typically associated with liquefied petroleum gas or propane.
EPA has issued a national press release that warns against the use of refrigerant substitutes that pose a fire and explosion risk. More information can be found at: http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress...0!OpenDocument.
The large number of possible victims necessitates that we ask for your assistance in one of the two ways listed below. Any responses are voluntary but will prove useful to our investigation. Completion of the questionnaire would help us further identify you as a victim and greatly help our investigation.
Please complete one of the two following methods.
Preferred Method—Complete the attached online form/questionnaire on the FBI.gov website: https://forms.fbi.gov/super-freeze.
Complete the questionnaire received in the mail and mail or e-mail it back to the address below:
FBI New Orleans, Sq 5
Super-Freeze Investigations
2901 Leon C. Simon Blvd
New Orleans, LA 70126
(email address removed to comply with this site's policy)
Your questionnaire and information will be kept confidential. However, there is a possibility your information will be released to specific parties through court-ordered proceedings.
Due to the large number of potential victims, it would be impractical for us to speak with each one of you individually. Based on the responses provided, you may be contacted by a special agent and asked to provide additional information. Regardless, your name has been added to our list of potential victims in the captioned matter, and our victim notification system will keep you informed of potential progress in any federal investigation that may develop as deemed appropriate, as well as provide you with updated information regarding your rights in this matter.
Again, please contact a licensed heating and air conditioning specialist if the flammable refrigerant product has been installed in your AC system, and do not attempt to service the system yourself."
Last edited by ICanHas; 06-24-2014 at 05:09 PM.
Professional Member
Using illegal hydrocarbon to "save the environment" could come at the expense of people getting hurt, things getting burned and of course results in
Professional Member*
Never seen any..... makes me worry about homeowners with leaky evaporator coils....
Professional Member
You generally don't know until it catches on fire. It's transparent to techs who only hook into low side. If they hook into low and high side, the high side will look off as the PT don't correspond to R22 at condensing temperature.Originally Posted by Dr Love
Many DIYers/Homeowners surely buy them NOT knowing the risk they're putting their own home, themselves and others who work on their A/C unit. If you're injured from DIY hydrocarbon attempts, I think its more fair to consider filing a product liability suit against the manufacturer or retailer that provided them the Refrigerant Flamethrower. Them for you pros... I hope that you know better than using it in service.
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It's about time!
Professional Member
Amen.
R-410A and such could possibly cause this in your 43rd generation children's time.
Some advocates market hydrocarbon delays that, saves energy etc. If you choose to install it on other people's system and there is ONE incident, you'll be in court room pronto!
When Enviro-Safe ES-22a accidentally ignited in its own re-packaging plant, this is what happened.
Media said that Enviro-Safe's owner said "He said the blast was an accident; a worker opened a gas valve that should have stayed closed." But that sort of oops happens all the time in the real world. If it was R-22, it would have possibly hastened the global warning and ozone depletion. With HC, scientific consensus is that there is no ozone depletion and global warming potential is very insignificant, but instead, buildings blow up and people get hurt.
Last edited by ICanHas; 06-24-2014 at 06:56 PM.
Professional Member *
So if their own employees who are supposedly trained to handle such materials can't even handle the product carefully, what makes them believe its perfectly safe for a homeowner or HVAC technician who can't distinguish R22a from R22?
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By preying that knowledge of this incident doesn't become widespread? I've always known HCs are dangerous, but wasn't aware of this particular very real life accident until I found it in search result today. Techs who are just starting out and uses this product are probably unaware that they've paved future liability claims against themselves and could blow up in their face like a landmine.So if their own employees who are supposedly trained to handle such materials can't even handle the product carefully, what makes them believe its perfectly safe for a homeowner or HVAC technician who can't distinguish R22a from R22?
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Ah, understood.
Professional Member
same here. a gas furnace in the basement with a leaky evap sitting on top. propane trickling out falling down past the burner
compartment when the HSI starts glowing for a heating cycle.
Professional Member*
Can you say more on this... I really do not have a test situation where I can learn first hand.... LOL
Would the pressures (and as a result SC) be higher or lower?
THX
GA-HVAC-Tech
Your comfort, Your way, Everyday!
GA's basic rules of home heating and AC upgrades:
*Installation is more important than the brand of equipment
*The duct system keeps the house comfortable; the equipment only heats and cools (and dehumidifies)
*The value of comfort, over the long term; leave economic choices behind!
Choose your contractor wisely!
Professional Member*
Yeah it took out my G5 Twin which isn't explosion proof. Sent it off for repairs. When I turned on the sw it blew out flame (turned it off immediately) then smoke. Thought it was R22. I'll check the gas next time before I hook up my recovery unit. Bleed some off into a recovery tank with a vacuum on it and then open the blue valve and light it up with a lighter. After the fact I did it and it shot a hot flame out big time. So beware. Thank you very much
"I could have ended the war in a month. I could have made North Vietnam look like a mud puddle."
"I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them. It is not to inaugurate new programs, but to cancel old ones that do violence to the Constitution."
Sen. Barry Goldwater
Global Moderator
[QUOTE=glennac;18606191] After the fact I did it and it shot a hot flame out big time.
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Well, there's others listed for sale on Amazon too. There's Red-tek 22a and Frostycool 22a.
Red-Tek mentions NOTHING in their PRODUCT DESCRIPTION @ Amazon about its flammability, nor its legalities for use in the U.S. They simply mention all its advantages when compared to R-22 and states that "22a is in full compliance with the UN Montreal Protocol." As of today though, it's still stocked for sale over Amazon.
I posted several comments on of their products there some time back in an attempt to let anyone looking at those products to be duly warned. Since I couldn't post a link of EPA's statement regarding R-22a, I copied/pasted their statement as my comment. From that, several characters there posted their rebuttals to discredit me and what I'd posted. One of them has since deleted their comments towards my post (I accused him of "astro-turfing").
The MSDS at Red-Tek's website match up in all respects to ones I read for ES-22a (Enviro-safe...which is in EPA's sites already with court documents submitted) and EF-22a (Ecofreeeze).
FrostyCool at least put in their PRODUCT DESCRIPTION on Amazon a lengthy dissertation regarding its legalities for use in the U.S., ending with "In the United States only the E.P.A (Environmental Protection Agency) regulations state that it is illegal to use FrostyCool 22a refrigerant in home central Air-Conditioning systems." It's listed as "currently unavailable" as of today.
Super-freeze is also listed at Amazon, but also currently unavailable.
* * * * *
The supporters of these products simply do not understand that the common HVAC/R systems in use in the U.S. -and- OUR standard daily maintenance/repair practices that we have invested in, trained for and do MANY times in a workday...are DRASTICALLY out of alignment with having these products marketed/installed inside the equipment we will be working on.
The still-evolving industry safety procedures, labeling standards, etc...are primarily (and almost exclusively) oriented for the systems (refrigerators) that ARE designed for HC refrigerants. As it stands, RSES is setting the standard for implementing that training and ultimate certification to work on that equipment.
However, general universal training & awareness of ANYONE practicing the HVAC/R trade is progressing slowly, albeit way too discreetly. That needs to happen far more aggressively than it is currently progressing so that when we DO encounter work on a LEGAL HC-based refrigerator or system here in the U.S., we'll have some idea to alter our approach at working on that equipment. That training should also include and expound upon testing for or looking for tell-tale signs that a system has ILLEGALLY been charged with a HC-based refrigerant - as a matter of routine when approaching each and every job.
As it stands today, these after-market & illegally installed HC refrigerants are being put into NON-HC designed equipment MOSTLY by hacks, tradesmen that haven't become educated on this matter, or by DIYers. SO...99 of 100 of those units (my arbitrary guess-ti-mate) WON'T be marked as having a NON-approved HC refrigerant contained in there -OR- won't be PROPERLY marked and may only have some crude markings on a panel on/in the unit (scrawled on a panel with a sharpie) that fades from the sun in a mere month's time.
Either way, there's NO warning on the fact that there's PROPANE in that system!
Professional Member
Wow! I never would've thought of that happening. Thank you very much glennac.
I still say that everyone should get them a combustible gas leak detector to go in the tool bag with their refrigerant version. When arriving at a job and before doing anything else, crack a service valve and let it take a sniff of the system's refrigerant charge...BEFORE embarking on any repairs.
If it sounds the alarm, WALK AWAY from it.
Professional Member*
WALK... that seems a little slow...
I never would've thought of that happening.
I still say that everyone should get them a combustible gas leak detector, crack a service valve and let it take a sniff of the system's refrigerant charge...BEFORE embarking on any repairs. If it sounds the alarm, WALK AWAY from it.
Good idea... Need to try my combustion leak detector on 22 and 410 to see what the reaction is... then on N/gas and LP. Knowing what one is looking for BEFORE one looks... is a good idea...
GA-HVAC-Tech
Your comfort, Your way, Everyday!
GA's basic rules of home heating and AC upgrades:
*Installation is more important than the brand of equipment
*The duct system keeps the house comfortable; the equipment only heats and cools (and dehumidifies)
*The value of comfort, over the long term; leave economic choices behind!
Choose your contractor wisely!
Professional Member*
[QUOTE=VTP99;18606231]Funny VT, I guess you have been checking flammability for all the unknown 22's you have evacuated? Just curious? I will say this I will in the future for any I'm not sure about and I sincerely doubt that the vast majority of techs do this. Thank you very muchAfter the fact I did it and it shot a hot flame out big time.
http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread....1#post18548521
"I could have ended the war in a month. I could have made North Vietnam look like a mud puddle."
"I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them. It is not to inaugurate new programs, but to cancel old ones that do violence to the Constitution."
Sen. Barry Goldwater
Professional Member
I use a bic lighter
I never would've thought of that happening.
I still say that everyone should get them a combustible gas leak detector to go in the tool bag with their refrigerant version. When arriving at a job and before doing anything else, crack a service valve and let it take a sniff of the system's refrigerant charge...BEFORE embarking on any repairs. If it sounds the alarm, WALK AWAY from it.
You sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim.
Professional Member*
I use a lighter to check for flammability, a lot cheaper. Works and no question about it. Just barely crack the valve so the flame won't shoot out 5' and light it. Thank you very much
I never would've thought of that happening.
I still say that everyone should get them a combustible gas leak detector to go in the tool bag with their refrigerant version. When arriving at a job and before doing anything else, crack a service valve and let it take a sniff of the system's refrigerant charge...BEFORE embarking on any repairs. If it sounds the alarm, WALK AWAY from it.
"I could have ended the war in a month. I could have made North Vietnam look like a mud puddle."
"I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them. It is not to inaugurate new programs, but to cancel old ones that do violence to the Constitution."
Sen. Barry Goldwater
Professional Member*
I probably should do it, as 1 town i work in has a envirosafe store, and billboard's all over. (By the way it caught fire last year)
