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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
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    Modbus to Johnson N-31

    I have a chiller with two compressors

    Two condensor pumps
    Two chiller pumps
    Three dry cooler fans

    It is being independently controlled with a Modbus PLC

    The controller has a LCD screen,but all that can be done is
    a setpoint adjustment and basic temp monitoring

    The configuration program which has over 4000 lines of code
    requires extensive assembly language programming
    registers,timers and many move instructions.

    There is about nine miles of wiring on the chiller
    I want to more or less leave the chiller the way it is

    The rest of the site uses a Johnson Metasys sytem with an N-31
    I want the Johnson system to
    monitor some chiller points

    Adjust the setpoint
    start /stop the chiller with a schedule
    start /stop the chiller based on outdoor air

    I am looking at the Johnson Modbus Integrator
    # MS-CIGMBM-0

    1) Will this work with an N-31 or will we have to
    Upgrade to and NAE or FX-40?
    2) Will this require extensive work to integrate it into
    the Metasys system?

    Thank you

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Philly, PA
    Posts
    42
    It will work with the N-31, however programing the MBM will be expensive or extensive.

    I think you'd do better with an FX-40. You can then bring in the N-31 as a BACnet / Ethernet device, then the MOD bus on the RS485 port.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
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    109
    Quote Originally Posted by joscon View Post
    I think you'd do better with an FX-40. You can then bring in the N-31 as a BACnet / Ethernet device, then the MOD bus on the RS485 port.
    Since the 485 port is N2 on the FX, how is that done?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Philly, PA
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    42
    Quote Originally Posted by 2^3 View Post
    Since the 485 port is N2 on the FX, how is that done?
    The 485 port is just that, a 485 port. It's not locked as an n2 port.
    You can attach that port to a BACnet mstp, modbus, PUP, ect. driver.

    The n30 is already online and the N2 is connected there. If the n30 dose not have a NIC card, get one. Now you bring the n30 in as a BACnet device over BACnet IP/Ethernet. 1 device will return for each n30 on the job. In other works the n30 will appear as a dynamic device to the JACE. Now when you discover the points from the device(n30) all the point that are mapped in the n30 will be returned.

    Now set the 484 com to modbus and start building the modbus database.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
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    109
    Quote Originally Posted by joscon View Post
    The 485 port is just that, a 485 port. It's not locked as an n2 port.
    You can attach that port to a BACnet mstp, modbus, PUP, ect. driver.

    The n30 is already online and the N2 is connected there. If the n30 dose not have a NIC card, get one. Now you bring the n30 in as a BACnet device over BACnet IP/Ethernet. 1 device will return for each n30 on the job. In other works the n30 will appear as a dynamic device to the JACE. Now when you discover the points from the device(n30) all the point that are mapped in the n30 will be returned.

    Now set the 484 com to modbus and start building the modbus database.
    So you are saying that JCI will license modbus on an FX40?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Philly, PA
    Posts
    42
    I'd need to read the license to say with absolute certainty, but to the best of my knowledge, the only difference between the JCI Branded JACE 403 and a Vykon or Webs license is the 100 device limit.

    I've even connected to a FX40 with Vykon & Webs Workbenches. you just need to have 3 JCI .JAR files installed.

    If you have a copy of a license handy, could you post it?

  7. #7
    The FX-40 is the way to go. If you use the 485 for N2. Doing a bacnet integration would be counter productive, why have two supervisory controllers to deal with...Just plain stupid IMO. if the FX is within a 50' distance of the chiller why not use the 232 port? if they can be licensed for modbus at all (never looked into it)or get a separate Jace 200 for the modbus. be a hell of alot better than a bastardized bacnet Or MIG modbus abortion .

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Philly, PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by freddy-b View Post
    The FX-40 is the way to go. If you use the 485 for N2. Doing a bacnet integration would be counter productive, why have two supervisory controllers to deal with...Just plain stupid IMO. if the FX is within a 50' distance of the chiller why not use the 232 port? if they can be licensed for modbus at all (never looked into it)or get a separate Jace 200 for the modbus. be a hell of alot better than a bastardized bacnet Or MIG modbus abortion .
    I suggested bringing in the n30 in BACnet/IP because a MIG integration is such an abortion. What do you think the chances of the chiller being within 50' of a usable location for the jace?

    Bringing in the n30 over IP is cake. As far as two supervisory controllers, if thats a big issue, strip the n30 of any control logic its doing ie schedules, interlock, etc then recreate in the jace. Unless you go all LON, none of the protocols mentioned here are counter productive.

    I like the jace 201 idea though, but now you need the web supervisor. (or whatever JCI calls there web sup.)
    Maybe allot to go thru just to adjust the setpoint, and start /stop the chiller .

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by joscon View Post
    I suggested bringing in the n30 in BACnet/IP because a MIG integration is such an abortion. What do you think the chances of the chiller being within 50' of a usable location for the jace?

    Bringing in the n30 over IP is cake. As far as two supervisory controllers, if thats a big issue, strip the n30 of any control logic its doing ie schedules, interlock, etc then recreate in the jace. Unless you go all LON, none of the protocols mentioned here are counter productive.

    I like the jace 201 idea though, but now you need the web supervisor. (or whatever JCI calls there web sup.)
    Maybe allot to go thru just to adjust the setpoint, and start /stop the chiller .
    Well, your way would work. Still say its the clumsy way too do it. Also there would be absolutely no sane reason to use a FX-40. Might as well get a real mans JACE and actually have one that actually stays with the curve. But in gods name why keep the N-31 around at all.

    The 200 would be more than just start/stop and adjusting the setpoint. Any chiller made in the last 20 years can do that. With a BO and a AO from anything. If thats all his goal is, then whats the point of Modbus? Also with the I/Os you could put the whole plant on the thing with a nice self contained package. Why would you need a websupervisor it would be nice but not a neccesity? Add each jace in the others niagara network, subscribe the points you need and you are good to go.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Philly, PA
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    42

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by freddy-b View Post
    Well, your way would work. Still say its the clumsy way too do it. Also there would be absolutely no sane reason to use a FX-40. Might as well get a real mans JACE and actually have one that actually stays with the curve. But in gods name why keep the N-31 around at all.

    The 200 would be more than just start/stop and adjusting the setpoint. Any chiller made in the last 20 years can do that. With a BO and a AO from anything. If thats all his goal is, then whats the point of Modbus? Also with the I/Os you could put the whole plant on the thing with a nice self contained package. Why would you need a websupervisor it would be nice but not a neccesity? Add each jace in the others niagara network, subscribe the points you need and you are good to go.
    I agree.. get a real mans jace, but you almost have to keep the damn n30 'cause JCI won't give the rest of us their n2 driver.
    I guess I stepped on my wang with the supervisor idea. I forgot about leaning in the other jace.

    I say blow up the chiller, replace it with a Mcquay and Microtech 2 with LON.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Scranton, PA 18509
    Posts
    55
    I would say not to use a JCI Integrator or FX40! Since the job is already N30s it most likely already has a M3 or M5 Workstation. I have used Integrators before, I basically ended up throwing it out and purchasing the correct drivers for BAS workstation. And the FX40 is going to be more robust than you need to just intergrate to 1 device. And I don't know if you guys tried to use the Modbus driver in the FX40 but it won't work b/c the FX40 is not licensed for it. JCI has no intention of selling the driver b/c there isn't an extra RS-485 port on the JACE-403 board. Now you could do Modbus TCP in the FX40 but I already talked to JCI Corporate and they don't have the ability to sell you that driver, and I talked w/ Tridium and they don't want anything to do w/ it. To intergrate to the Modbus device you would have to purchase a Tridium JACE-403 controller w/ the Modbus Serial or TCP driver, which is going to cost you about $2800 if you have a agreement w/ Tridium or Honeywell... I have agreements w/ both so it is easy for me to purcahse either.

    All I would do is buy a Modbus Driver for the workstation, Ive used drivers from a company called Kepware (they have excellent tech support). The driver will cost you abpuot $800 but from a material standpoint is about 3x less than a JCI Integrator, FX40, or a JACE!

    I have done both Modbus and Modbus TCP. We use Modbus a lot when we do large boiler rooms, utlity monitoring, flow meters, etc. Works VERY WELL for industrial applications.


    If you don't mind what type of PLC controller is the one you need to intergrate to? I'm thinking it is a DirectLogic b/c Allen Bradley doesn't directly talk Modbus w/o a special card. I have worked w/ both so any questions just ask....

    Thankx
    Jamie

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    NorthEast
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    811
    There is no user work station
    The N2 only has six devices on it
    I did not see any Modbus info.

    Connected to the Panasonic FPG C-24 Sigma PLC

    I have an Panasonic FPO-A 80 A/D converter

    and an Alerton FLG Modbus to BACNET converter

    On the PLC I have a ladder diagram that lists relays (like the PLC programming on a DX-9100)

    How would I map one of those relays from the PLC on to the FX-40 ?

    Thank you

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    278
    Just a note
    The Modbus async driver is avaliable on the fx40 you can purchase it from Johnson.
    I have 4 of them running on differnt sites, the driver runs cuncurrently with lon and N2 the modbus goes on the 232 port and then to a b&b rs4859tb then off it goes with no 50ft limit
    thanks
    Kevin

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