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  1. #14
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Posts
    33,389
    Quote Originally Posted by geodude View Post
    The 2twr4048 is a 14 seer and it hits 9.0 hspf and 14 seer with or without an ecm air handler
    You better tell ARI that. Best they show with a coil only match is 13.50 with a big slab coil. With the 2TEC air handler, 13.25 is best. Only way to hit 14.00 or above is with most 2TEE air handlers or a VERY FEW XV or X13 furnace/coil combos. Looking at the ratings, maybe 10% of the XR14/XV furnace combos hit 14.

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Round Rock
    Posts
    3,402
    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    Are you really suggesting to use an 80% gas furnace "AND" that a dual fuel system is not worth.....what? Just what is a dual fuel system not worth?

    Oh yea, and I do this for a living as well, only as a professional.
    If you are a professional, then tell me how the price difference between a dual fuel 90%+ system vs. the price difference on an 80% efficient variable speed furnace is worth it. We know what the difference in price is without mentioning it on here. Unless you are in a VERY cold climate you will never make back your money for a backup source of heat. Most heat pumps will keep up to a very low temperature (my experience being 10-20 degrees unless moisture is in the air) before having to kick on aux. heat. So unless you're running propane or are once again VERY cold. It will not pay for itself. Calm down, I was not insulting your precious Goodman, just expressing MY OPINION that I would take a Trane over a Goodman if I didn't care about the price. For the price, there is nothing the matter with a Goodman. I have nothing to do with Amana, so I cannot give my opinion on them. Only the Goodman's that I have serviced more often than Trane. You are not insulted for your opinions, so do not insult me for mine. Grow up. You are not the prima donna you think you are. This is a forum to discuss HVAC, not shot down because we do not agree with the mighty ROBOTEQ. I am sick and tired of you bullying everybody who does not agree with you.

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    oregon
    Posts
    885
    MYYYYYYY BAAAAAAD! I looked at the 2twr4030! By the way the 2twr does hit 14 seer and 9.0 hspf with the 2tee3d airhandler. But not with the furnaces as you noted! Time for me to get a cup of coffee! Have a great new year!
    Genius = The guy who can do anything...except make a living!

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Eastern PA
    Posts
    68,852
    Quote Originally Posted by hivacjack View Post
    .....it so happens that the 2twr4048 has been discontinued. Why talk about it. Some including me might consider it somewhat unethical to sell and install it over a current and much improved CURRENT model TRANE such as (for instance the 4TWX5048A1 4 TON unit. This guy is 14-15 SEER, 8.5-9HSPF 49000BTUH at 47F, 31000BTUH at 17F. More expensive than the GOODMAN
    but about 10db quieter also. On top of that TRANE pulled themselves up by
    thier bootstraps and managed to place ahead of GOODMAN in the 2007 J D POWER survey.
    Do you have a copy of that survey? The last one I saw had Lennox and Goodman nearly tied for first place with Lennox about 1/2% in the lead.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  5. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Eastern PA
    Posts
    68,852
    Quote Originally Posted by bmathews View Post
    If you are a professional, then tell me how the price difference between a dual fuel 90%+ system vs. the price difference on an 80% efficient variable speed furnace is worth it. We know what the difference in price is without mentioning it on here. Unless you are in a VERY cold climate you will never make back your money for a backup source of heat. Most heat pumps will keep up to a very low temperature (my experience being 10-20 degrees unless moisture is in the air) before having to kick on aux. heat. So unless you're running propane or are once again VERY cold. It will not pay for itself. Calm down, I was not insulting your precious Goodman, just expressing MY OPINION that I would take a Trane over a Goodman if I didn't care about the price. For the price, there is nothing the matter with a Goodman. I have nothing to do with Amana, so I cannot give my opinion on them. Only the Goodman's that I have serviced more often than Trane. You are not insulted for your opinions, so do not insult me for mine. Grow up. You are not the prima donna you think you are. This is a forum to discuss HVAC, not shot down because we do not agree with the mighty ROBOTEQ. I am sick and tired of you bullying everybody who does not agree with you.
    So sorry you are so sick and tired. Maybe you should go to bed early tonight with the rest of the children.

    There has not been one mention of brand in any of my posts, so your claim to my thinking you have insulted a specific brand is as useless as your advice on efficiencies of furnaces. You are the only one blowing the horn for a brand. For what your opinions are worth, I for one would not want you supporting a brand I backed.

    The conversation is on 80% furnaces vs condensing furnaces that are 15% more efficient and dual fuel comfort and savings. No matter what the cost of fossil fuels, they are still less expensive then resistance electric and a lot more comfortable.

    Now, get yourself a bottle and have mommy tuck you in before you get paddled for having a temper tantrum
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  6. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    oregon
    Posts
    885
    In Oregon ( where I live ) There is a state tax credit of 350.00 AND up untill jan 1 a fed tax credit of 150, and an energy trust incentive of up to 200.00 (not including any manu. rebates). This usually drives the consumer to purchase the 90%+ furnace as the incentives nearly pay for the upgrade. A heatpump on a 80% ecm furnace usually rates higher in effciencies ( at least with Trane) when combined with a heatpump because there is less friction penalty due to the fact that the 80 has no secondary heat exchanger. Dual fuel systems are very popular here, one reason is that during power outages (we are in a rural area) it does not take much of a generator to run a gas or oil furnace.
    Genius = The guy who can do anything...except make a living!

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    California
    Posts
    631

    Smile

    Dont buy trane for the name , buy a unit that is going to be properly installed and started up. Goodman is getting much better and the waranty is 10 year compressor and parts and labor waranties are available. variable speed rocks....I was disappointed when trane started using those polimar plastic blower housings in there air handlers and when they went to the plastic louvers on there residential package units. remember NEVER go with the low bidder, spend a little more money now or a lot later. make sure your contractors perform a load calc.....good luck..

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    43
    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    Do you have a copy of that survey? The last one I saw had Lennox and Goodman nearly tied for first place with Lennox about 1/2% in the lead.


    ........go to jdpower.com and incert HVAC into the search window.

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Round Rock
    Posts
    3,402
    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    So sorry you are so sick and tired. Maybe you should go to bed early tonight with the rest of the children.

    There has not been one mention of brand in any of my posts, so your claim to my thinking you have insulted a specific brand is as useless as your advice on efficiencies of furnaces. You are the only one blowing the horn for a brand. For what your opinions are worth, I for one would not want you supporting a brand I backed.

    The conversation is on 80% furnaces vs condensing furnaces that are 15% more efficient and dual fuel comfort and savings. No matter what the cost of fossil fuels, they are still less expensive then resistance electric and a lot more comfortable.

    Now, get yourself a bottle and have mommy tuck you in before you get paddled for having a temper tantrum
    You didn't support a brand on this particular thread. But reading posts from you in the past. I think most on here know your particular affinity for Goodman products. He asked a specific question regarding Trane vs. Goodman. I did not bring the Trane into this thread, the OP did. HE ASKED our opinion, which I gave. I'm not going to argue with you. You know what I'm talking about with a heat pump and how long they can run before aux. heat comes on. Yes, electric heat is inefficient as heck. IF you have a long cold winter, then YES a 90 furnace is worth it. If you DO NOT have a long cold winter, then NO a 90 furnace is not worth it. Given that most people only live in their homes 5-7 years before moving to a new one. Once again, rather than try to have a civil conversation/debate, you resort to attacking people. A lot of posts I read on here where you are involved, you become agitated and resort to attacking people. If you are as knowledgeable as you appear to be or think you are, (I do not know your history or work experience in the industry or what you do now) I would think you would try to use reason and educate people. I will help people whenever I can. Our industry has a bad name, and when people come on here and read some of your posts, it just re-affirms their opinions. I won't sell a homeowner something they don't need, no matter how much money is involved. Without knowing more specifics, I do not believe it would benefit him to buy more than he needs.

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    523
    Quote Originally Posted by Fishman15 View Post
    The contractor who I am using (I feel more comfortable with) is installing a 4 ton and also insulating my duct work and adding 2 new returns. Everyone else, was going to install 3.5 and 3 but not adding insulation to my duct work. Does this sound like they know what they are doing?
    This is the only choice that really matters, and you seem to have made the right one already. You could buy the highest end equipment out there, but if its not sized right or properly ducted it wont work worth a damn. Id go with whichever equipment this guy is offering, if he offers both then Id probably go with the goodman due to the 10yr warranty. Then you can use the money saved to get some airquality upgrades; whole house humidifier, high quality filtration, uv light, etc.

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Eastern PA
    Posts
    68,852
    Quote Originally Posted by bmathews View Post
    You didn't support a brand on this particular thread. But reading posts from you in the past. I think most on here know your particular affinity for Goodman products. He asked a specific question regarding Trane vs. Goodman. I did not bring the Trane into this thread, the OP did. HE ASKED our opinion, which I gave. I'm not going to argue with you. You know what I'm talking about with a heat pump and how long they can run before aux. heat comes on. Yes, electric heat is inefficient as heck. IF you have a long cold winter, then YES a 90 furnace is worth it. If you DO NOT have a long cold winter, then NO a 90 furnace is not worth it. Given that most people only live in their homes 5-7 years before moving to a new one. Once again, rather than try to have a civil conversation/debate, you resort to attacking people. A lot of posts I read on here where you are involved, you become agitated and resort to attacking people. If you are as knowledgeable as you appear to be or think you are, (I do not know your history or work experience in the industry or what you do now) I would think you would try to use reason and educate people. I will help people whenever I can. Our industry has a bad name, and when people come on here and read some of your posts, it just re-affirms their opinions. I won't sell a homeowner something they don't need, no matter how much money is involved. Without knowing more specifics, I do not believe it would benefit him to buy more than he needs.
    I was not attacking you at all, just letting you know why your opinions in this case are absurd. Then again, that is just "my" opinion. I really cannot fathom what has got you in such an uproar. It's ok to be wrong

    80% furnaces are so bad of an idea for use in most applications north of the lower Southern states that they are being forced out of several states as far as even being legal to install. At the cost of "properly" installing a new 80% furnace to prevent them from self destruction due to condensate issues it is most times more feasable to install the much more efficient condensing furnaces.

    As for not using a fossil fuel system as auxilliary heat for a heat pump system, again, the energy savings along with the comfort advantages completely support dual fuel systems anywhere it gets below 40 degrees.

    It is you who has attacked me completely without reason. You have attacked me with claims as to a brand loyalty on this site when the fact is that I have posted positive posts about every brand out there as well as negative posts regarding the brand I currently represent. On this site, my only loyalty is to the HVAC industry.

    If you want to be taken somewhat serious, at least become a professional member so we can better discuss the nuances of various systems in the professional forums.

    And just so you know, I don't become agitated when posting here. I post here because I enjoy it. May I suggest that you too try to enjoy rather then becoming upset, or would that be another flaw in my character to you?
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  12. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    66,764
    I'd choose the one with the best operating cost.

    You pay foir the installation once.
    You pay for its operation virtually every month.
    Contractor locator map

    How-to-apply-for-Professional

    How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?

  13. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    oregon
    Posts
    885
    I would rather have the best trained tech install a " bargin brand " system then a over sold "top shelf" brand by untrained "heating guys" Ask for referalls, check refrences, Know your contractor ask for proof of training such as NATE, RSES certifications.
    Genius = The guy who can do anything...except make a living!

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