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  1. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by scrogdog View Post
    Boot, whether or not we are stubborn has *nothing* at all to do with the message God sends by killing those without faith or those who displease him.

    The point is, of course, that it is rather strange to complain about Allah saying that it is ok to kill infidels when it is perfectly clear that God also thinks it is ok. In fact, he has at times used *men* to do so.

    When Allah does it, you condemn Muslims. When God does it, you defend him.

    Of course I don't think murder is ok, but it seems to me you are a bit confused over what murder is. If I take a group of people and put them in a cement pit and then cover it and fill it with water, would you call that premeditated murder? Yes or no.
    Yes. That would be capital offense murder.

    I think I know where you're going with this and if it is, you're wasting our time.
    No reserve. No retreat. No regrets.

    For those who have fought for it, freedom has a sweetness the protected will never know.

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  2. #15
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    Only because you will fall back on the argument that God gave us our lives and so can take them away as he pleases.

    There is a lot wrong with that idea philosophically speaking, but I'll leave it be for now since it really has nothing to do with my point.

    Which is simply this; Christians have, throughout time, killed in the name of God. According to the bible, several times it was on God's personal orders. Other times, people have done so "on thier own" and thus in both of our views "improperly".

    I view the Crusades as a strategically defensive campaign, however, Robo is quite correct to point out that there was very little that was "Christian-like" about that action.

    What I dislike is looking down at Muslims. They are only doing what Christians USED to do. That you do no longer is to your credit. I'd be proud of that as I imagine that you are. That's what we need from Muslims now... a revelation of sanity, humanity and civilization. It's going to be VERY hard to get there if you cast them down continually as some type of lesser beings when they are only doing what almost all belief groups have done over time.

    Muslims need to "grow up", socially speaking, just as Christians once did.
    "Social networking" is an oxymoron.

  3. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by scrogdog View Post
    Only because you will fall back on the argument that God gave us our lives and so can take them away as he pleases.

    There is a lot wrong with that idea philosophically speaking, but I'll leave it be for now since it really has nothing to do with my point.

    Which is simply this; Christians have, throughout time, killed in the name of God. According to the bible, several times it was on God's personal orders. Other times, people have done so "on thier own" and thus in both of our views "improperly".

    I view the Crusades as a strategically defensive campaign, however, Robo is quite correct to point out that there was very little that was "Christian-like" about that action.

    What I dislike is looking down at Muslims. They are only doing what Christians USED to do. That you do no longer is to your credit. I'd be proud of that as I imagine that you are. That's what we need from Muslims now... a revelation of sanity, humanity and civilization. It's going to be VERY hard to get there if you cast them down continually as some type of lesser beings when they are only doing what almost all belief groups have done over time.

    Muslims need to "grow up", socially speaking, just as Christians once did.

    Could not have said it any better, you can express yourself much better then I, but that was my point. I believe a large percentage of Muslims do not adhere to some of the extreme elements of that religion. And such extreemism isnt only a product of religion, but can be found in nationalism and racism. I call it extreem discrimination, and is a product of an sociatal upbringing.

    A good example is found in here, where some have expressed that they would find no remorse in making a glass top out of a Muslim country. Not even acklowledging that some of those countries are not totaly Islam, but that there are many practicing Christians and other non Islamics living there. Not that I agree even if they were all Islamic, that such a heinous act would be exusable.

    Roy
    "The perfect Totalitarian State is one where the political bosses, and their army of managers, control a population of slaves, who do not have to be coerced, because they love their servitude"

  4. #17
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    I believe a large percentage of Muslims do not adhere to some of the extreme elements of that religion.
    I agree, and therein lies the social catch-22. If we say that extremists are violent and that other Muslims are peaceful, how can we then say to the peaceful ones "you people need to stand up and take back your religion"? That can only mean one thing.

    However, there are times when men of peace must stand up and fight for what is right. So, that is exactly what I would (and do) say. The common Muslim must take a stand instead of cowering in fear.

    Any man who sees fit to carry an AK-47 openly in the streets should not be wearing a mask. If you feel that your cause is just and right and that you are doing the correct thing, then show your damn face and show pride in your cause. Even Muslims have to see this as a cowardly act - brandishing a weapon from behind a mask.
    "Social networking" is an oxymoron.

  5. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    72 virgins?

    I'll bet they wouldn't be so fired up about those virgins if they knew most of them are male and there is a good reason the female ones are still a virgin.
    Achmed will explain......

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uwOL4rB-go
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  6. #19
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    Achmed will explain......
    That was one of the funniest acts by him I've ever seen.... I was on the ground laughing so hard...lol

  7. #20
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    Thank you for your candid input on this sensitive subject.

    Historically, Islam nay not fare so bad as trouble,.. but look at 'today'. All religions have 'KOOKS' , but the minorities within islam are a large minority. 13% of USA muslims think suicide-murdering of civilians is 'often' justified. 26% sometimes. That is an astonishing amount of 'minority opinion'.

    If you are a 'friendly' muslim, then you are in the hardest of all places. If sharia law is your political ideal,.. you will have some opposition I promise. Buy even if you do not want sharia-law, many of yours do. How do we rectify this?

  8. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tool-Slinger View Post
    Thank you for your candid input on this sensitive subject.

    Historically, Islam nay not fare so bad as trouble,.. but look at 'today'. All religions have 'KOOKS' , but the minorities within islam are a large minority. 13% of USA muslims think suicide-murdering of civilians is 'often' justified. 26% sometimes. That is an astonishing amount of 'minority opinion'.

    If you are a 'friendly' muslim, then you are in the hardest of all places. If sharia law is your political ideal,.. you will have some opposition I promise. Buy even if you do not want sharia-law, many of yours do. How do we rectify this?
    Yup. And that is 13% and 26% too many.
    No reserve. No retreat. No regrets.

    For those who have fought for it, freedom has a sweetness the protected will never know.

    http://www.airwarvietnam.com/16thSOSGunners2.jpg

    Proud member of KA Club

  9. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootlen View Post
    Yup. And that is 13% and 26% too many.
    It is ASTONISHING, boot, astonishing! Jim Jones/McVeigh/Koresh/Manson... all accepted kooks.. yet ioslam gets 'a pass' in spite of their record of murder. Islam is full of murderers. Many are nice, but islamic members are the biggest murderers of our time.

  10. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tool-Slinger View Post
    It is ASTONISHING, boot, astonishing! Jim Jones/McVeigh/Koresh/Manson... all accepted kooks.. yet ioslam gets 'a pass' in spite of their record of murder. Islam is full of murderers. Many are nice, but islamic members are the biggest murderers of our time.
    Many are indeed nice. Like Koresh and Jones followers. And they all self-imploded. And some are off the deep end like Manson followers who were looking for a place to self-destruct. Scary as hell.
    No reserve. No retreat. No regrets.

    For those who have fought for it, freedom has a sweetness the protected will never know.

    http://www.airwarvietnam.com/16thSOSGunners2.jpg

    Proud member of KA Club

  11. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tool-Slinger View Post
    Thank you for your candid input on this sensitive subject.

    Historically, Islam nay not fare so bad as trouble,.. but look at 'today'. All religions have 'KOOKS' , but the minorities within islam are a large minority. 13% of USA muslims think suicide-murdering of civilians is 'often' justified. 26% sometimes. That is an astonishing amount of 'minority opinion'.

    If you are a 'friendly' muslim, then you are in the hardest of all places. If sharia law is your political ideal,.. you will have some opposition I promise. Buy even if you do not want sharia-law, many of yours do. How do we rectify this?
    Just curious as to where you got the information on the percentage of muslims in america believing suicide bombings are justified.

  12. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by corny View Post
    Just curious as to where you got the information on the percentage of muslims in america believing suicide bombings are justified.
    '''''''''The survey found 26 percent of younger Muslims believed suicide bombings are often, sometimes or rarely justified, compared with 69 percent who believed such attacks can never be accepted.

    By contrast, 13 percent of all U.S. Muslims felt suicide attacks could be justified often, sometimes or rarely, while 78 percent completely rejected the deadly tactic that has been used by al Qaeda and other Islamist militants.'''''''''

    ''''''Pew estimates that there are 2.35 million Muslims living in the United States,''''''

    http://www.reuters.com/article/topNe...070522?sp=true


    I pulled that number out of my head. I did some looking to give you a proper reply, looks like I applied ''often'' to 13% unfairly. However,... there is that 26% too....

    Interestingly, stumbled across this too while looking for your answer:

    '''''''The Pew poll also found that almost half of the nation's Muslims are more likely to identify themselves as Muslims first and then Americans, with 47 percent placing religious affiliation above nationality.

    Three out of four people surveyed said the decision to go to war in Iraq was wrong, and 48 percent said using force in Afghanistan was wrong. Five percent of those surveyed had a "very favorable" or "somewhat favorable" view of Al Qaeda, while 58 percent had a "very unfavorable" opinion of the terror group.'''''''

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,274934,00.html


    Seems to have generated from a PEW poll, at least that is what I am finding. Reports on it vary and get skewed in places, Could not find the pew-direct link.

    Fair enough?

  13. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by scrogdog View Post
    So, the great flood does not send us all the message that God thinks it is ok to kill over belief(s)?
    I'm not sure about that one scrog. The flood story is one that is part of other faiths then the Judeo-Christian faiths. Could it be that the flood is just a way of our ancient ancestors to understand a great change in the existance of mankind? After all, while Biblical stories as well as stories from other faith based cultures are all writen in the perspective of the writer, not necessarily the author or from the actual point of reference.

    Perception is the fact of the perceiver, but not necessarily the True facts.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


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