fabric ducts in small restaurant/store

[dame]

Hello all
In process of building new 3700 sf coffee shop/cheese outlet store. 9' ceilings, built of ICF, open concept. 4 Ton , 13 seer, 115,000 btu Goodman pkg gas/electric unit. For cost saving and interesting decorative element, considering using fabric ductwork.
No one in southwest Wisconsin can provide me with solid proof of their desirability or nondesirability.
Anyone here know the facts?
Thanks

[Freezeking2000]

Hello all
In process of building new 3700 sf coffee shop/cheese outlet store. 9' ceilings, built of ICF, open concept. 4 Ton , 13 seer, 115,000 btu Goodman pkg gas/electric unit. For cost saving and interesting decorative element, considering using fabric ductwork.
No one in southwest Wisconsin can provide me with solid proof of their desirability or nondesirability.
Anyone here know the facts?
Thanks

I think you had better have someone look at that load, maybe ok for residential, but it will not work for a coffee shop. You need more cooling if you are making coffee to sell.

[dame]

Even with a hood system? If so, what ton AC? They are going to order unit this next week.
thanks

[Freezeking2000]

With the hood you need more cooling. You need what ever size the design indicates. Make sure the installed has references. A subway sub shop requires 10 Tons of cooling, so go from there.

[jim2005]

Tell your contractor to do a “real” heat load calculation, you have to give the contractor the amps and wattages of all the equipment you will have in the store and the #er of people for the load calculation to be accurate. If you don’t do the load calculation the contractor is only guessing and the real question is, can you afford the contractor to guess when it’s the hottest week in the summer?

[WANDERSON41]

I agree. 4 ton is not even close.

[Mstrav]

You are way off on your tonnage, you have a hood exhaust system going in and what are you doing about Make Up Air? You will have no ceiling so all of you air will be at the top of the ceiling. I'm sure you will have some fancy lighting scheme and those pendant, quartz or can lights pump out some heat. You also have the load based on your ocupancy for fresh air, and then howe many reach-in, refrigerated prep tables etc... are you going to have?


you are going about this the wrong way!!!!!


matt

[dan sw fl]

Even with a hood system? If so, what ton AC? They are going to order unit this next week.

AND 2 or more in ~ 6 months ! !! You need PROfessional Help !


I need AT LEAST a 10 - FOOT pole

[dame]

Gentlemen,
Thank you for taking time to critique my post. I have a very bad feeling about my hvac contractor.
Time to regroup and find other bidders for this job. This is my dream project. I do not want it to turn into a nightmare.
Thanks again
dame

[tinner73]

beware of the low bidder!!!!!!

[dan sw fl]

I have a very bad feeling about my hvac contractor.
Time to regroup and ... This is my dream project.

I do not want it to turn into a nightmare ... again ... damn

I have a bad feeling about your approach in addressing
development orders,
permitting issues,
WI state laws;
electrical, mechanical, HVAC, plumbing and fire sprinkler design;
kitchen design,
and build process.

3,700 square feet is not exactly small ...
Seating and Occupancy capacity is 40, 80 or 120 ?
Outside Air requirements at a higher noted capacity could require close to 10 tons.

[BaldLoonie]

We had a new bar owner call, he had fabric ducts put in. The noise off the 10 ton air handler was so loud that you couldn't talk over it in 1/2 the bar The HVAC contractor won't do anything, the duct manufacturer said things were done wrong. We suggested he deal with a commercial contractor so don't know what he ended up doing.

[DCSCO]

Dame
Fabric ducts work when properly applied. They provide even distribution of conditioned air. They can be cleaned if manageable in size. If this is design build work, make sure all your expectations are in the contract documents, noise levels, temp and humidity levels based on summer and winter outside air conditions and efficieny, not to mention the look of the finished work if exposed. The more the contractor knows what you want, the more likely you will get what you want.

I agree with the other comments about load and the kitchen hood. You could have four tons of heat load just from glass door cheese cases, ice machine, coffee brewstation... ICF has great insulating value but you hope to have alot door openings. Kitchen hoods in this part of the country require 70% of make-up air supplied from outside, not air conditioned but usually heated in winter. The other 30% of air comes from kitchen. 4 tons would be a little fat for a 3700 sqft ICF home in Maryland. But your shop could require a bit more.

[keepyoucool2003]

Sounds like a residential contractor, commercial wanna-be. We've all dealt with those, don't think you’re alone out there. Protect yourself and have your contractor produce the data they used to create the load profile you don't have to be blunt and obvious, curious owner wants to know where his equipment sizing is coming from. That would help to weed out the do it by the thumb guys. I personally say look for a commercial contractor, union, bonus would have memberships with ACCA & ASHRAE. Some companies might have an engineer on staff.

side story
I've done one of those subway jobs, brand new gas station, leased space for the subway, 5ton unit, no low ambient kit for the condenser, but low temp cutout, low/high pressure safety, TXV, CC heater. First day below 45 their calling no cooling, place it 85+. Added the condenser control, place is always hot. We convinced the property owner to put a hood above their oven. It's still always HOT in there, same as every other subway I've ever been to that's shoved in somewhere. This building was engineered by a general contractor, 3 other 5-ton splits for a gas station, I shake my head when split units are put in where a rooftop should be used.

Had a spa with a zoned system with 6 zones, interior spaces, treatment rooms with tubs ect ect. These grand thinkers put in a split 120,000btu 90%er and 3 ton unit. Then for the hair area with 4 chairs giant ceilings, a simple 80,000btu 2 ton split. All they had was, HOT or COLD, odors ect ect. We told them in some many words, they got the shaft.

[dan sw fl]

I have a bad feeling about your approach in addressing
development orders,
permitting issues,
WI state laws;
electrical, mechanical, HVAC, plumbing and fire sprinkler design;
kitchen design,
and build process.

3,700 square feet is not exactly small ...
Seating and Occupancy capacity is 40, 80 or 120 ?
Outside Air requirements at a higher noted capacity could require close to 10 tons.

How do you plan to comply with WI Chapter Comm 64?

http://www.legis.state.wi.us/rsb/code/comm/comm064.pdf

[The Penguin]

Hello all
In process of building new 3700 sf coffee shop/cheese outlet store. 9' ceilings, built of ICF, open concept. 4 Ton , 13 seer, 115,000 btu Goodman pkg gas/electric unit. For cost saving and interesting decorative element, considering using fabric ductwork.
No one in southwest Wisconsin can provide me with solid proof of their desirability or nondesirability.
Anyone here know the facts?
Thanks

You up shiat creek

here's a clue on tonnage req - a certain coffee chain think green and stars
load spec is 3 cfm per sq ft
this means you need somewhere closer to 25ton cooling ( no I'm not kidding)
so I'd get another contractor to do the job correctly

Oh and the fabric duct - ditch the idea go with spiral metal duct

[BigMikeB]

Hello all
In process of building new 3700 sf coffee shop/cheese outlet store. 9' ceilings, built of ICF, open concept. 4 Ton , 13 seer, 115,000 btu Goodman pkg gas/electric unit. For cost saving and interesting decorative element, considering using fabric ductwork.
No one in southwest Wisconsin can provide me with solid proof of their desirability or nondesirability.
Anyone here know the facts?
Thanks

We do a lot of a coffee shops in that sq ft range here in NJ, most have at least 12 tons of ac, heat is never an issue. Have a real heat loss/ gain done. Did two places with fabric drops replaced both when they got mold growing on them in the first cooling season.

[maxster]

here is some jobs with fabric ducts and the product line http://www.ductsox.com/

[dame]

Gentlemen,
I copied your detailed replies and showed them to the general contractor who is bidding my store. He was upset and embarrassed, and told me he would go back to his hvac sub-contractor with this information. He called me this evening and and told me he has switched hvac sub-contractors and the new sub-contractor is a 30 year man. They spent several hours this evening going over the architectural and equipment plans. The initial opinion agrees with the majority of your estimates of 10+ tons.
Thank you for your generous support!

[hvacker]

I did a T&B in a restaurant about that size a couple years ago with fabric ducts.
The system was very quiet and very comfortable.
I liked the feeling of air movement w/o actually feeling breezy.
I would make sure there is no chance any grease exhaust can enter the a/c units as the holes in the ducts are very small.
While the ducts are washable it's not something anyone would want to do very often.

Have a good certified T&B company balance the systems paying close attention to exhaust and makeup air.

Use good air filters and change them as required not by a time table.

While many contractors can do work like this a lot just guess. I don't know if an engineer is within your budget but I'd give it some thought.