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  1. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Schoen View Post
    No, they don't want atheists teaching God doesn't exist. Note the significance of this distinction.

    While a teacher who is a non-believer might be an agnostic they just as ez be an atheist. Or like you.


    Wrong! Scientific testing of religion improves religion. At one time, Apollo was responsible for our sun, and God made Earth the center of the universe. We know these things to be false. IMHO, science will help the religious understand what the prophets have been stating all along.

    If the religious elect to ignore science, they might as well bounce around half-naked in front of the Monolith swinging clubs.
    I also believe that the Christian view of God is way too small. I also think the true high priests today are scientists. In truth who do people truly trust to reveal the mysteries the guy in the church or science? I know many will swear up and down they believe in religion but their approach to the world betrays them.
    Few churches deal with the mysteries. Most are all about numbers. They will continue to ignore science as long as it's viewed as their competition.

    And while I believe you probably know Scientific Method by heart I'm puzzled why you contend religion can be proven through the Method. Conclusion: The existance of God can not be proved or disproved therefore science and it's Method is ineffective in this instance as the goal of science is to prove.
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  2. #28
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    I honestly don't understand the need to argue something that cannot be proven either way. No matter how advanced our scientific equipment becomes (shy of a working time machine) we will never ever be able to prove that Scientific Theories OR Divine Creation is how the human species entered into existence.

    Why not debate as to how we know that grass is really green, or if the sky is really blue? How do we know that the person who named the colors wasn't colorblind and named them wrong?

    Creation and Evolution will be argued until there is nobody around to argue about them.
    I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter.

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  3. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by hvactech13 View Post
    I honestly don't understand the need to argue something that cannot be proven either way. No matter how advanced our scientific equipment becomes (shy of a working time machine) we will never ever be able to prove that Scientific Theories OR Divine Creation is how the human species entered into existence.

    Why not debate as to how we know that grass is really green, or if the sky is really blue? How do we know that the person who named the colors wasn't colorblind and named them wrong?

    Creation and Evolution will be argued until there is nobody around to argue about them.
    This is why an interpretation of "Agnostic" is ignorance (about things metaphysical) is the rational outcome of tought.
    Tracers work both ways.

  4. #30
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    Why not debate as to how we know that grass is really green, or if the sky is really blue? How do we know that the person who named the colors wasn't colorblind and named them wrong?


    I've asked those questions myself many times....
    Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  5. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by hvactech13 View Post
    I honestly don't understand the need to argue something that cannot be proven either way. No matter how advanced our scientific equipment becomes (shy of a working time machine) we will never ever be able to prove that Scientific Theories OR Divine Creation is how the human species entered into existence.
    Let me try once again. Evolution has not ONE thing to do with how life began. Zero. Ziltch. Nada.

    Besides, that was not the question posed: which is why do we not teach creation as an alternative evolution in science class? Answer: because it is NOT science. Second, because the result of evolution was NOT the beginning of life so the two are not comparable.

    Feel free to teach it as philosophy. The alternative to creation in that sense would be abiogenesis. NOT evolution.

    Why not debate as to how we know that grass is really green, or if the sky is really blue? How do we know that the person who named the colors wasn't colorblind and named them wrong?
    Because these things make no difference to the state of man. However, religion certainly does. People who worry about human perception of color are not, last I heard, performing the modern version of book burning by attaching "this stuff is untrue" stickers to science texts.

    Actually burning books is so uncouth these days, you see.

    Creation and Evolution will be argued until there is nobody around to argue about them.
    Maybe, but not necessarily. The idea of a literal creation as described by the bible has *already* been erased by *observation*. In other words... we didn't even need science yet (which provides explanations). That doesn't mean that God does not exist, however it could mean that the bible was written and inspired only by men.
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  6. #32
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    You know, I don't think that the real battleground here is science vs God.

    It is more a philosophical matter. Here is why I say that.

    I fight this fight for the same reason that Robo fights Santa (I'm gonna have to go with Robo in the 5th round on that one) - our kids. But that doesn't mean that Christian philosphy is bad. The Ten Commandments are fine with me. Loving and helping your fellow man is fine with me. I think only someone that is a bit ustable could argue with the logic of what I consider to be the prime tenents of Christian faith. Whether or not I believe that God actually exists is irrelevant.

    The issue is truly this, and I'll try to say it in the nicest way possible.

    Many of you beleive that man is incapable of being moral without the guidance of God. You must not just accept Jesus as divine, that's not what "accepting" him means in this context. To accept Jesus is to emulate his actions as much as possible. To just believe that Jesus was God incarnate as a fact unto itself is useless. You must accept his ways and his teachings also.

    But since, in the end you are only human, you will make mistakes. Sins. Sometimes bad ones. So, God gave us Jesus, who died on the cross so that man would be able to continue on as the flawed beings that we are, and still have a chance to be with God in the afterlife.

    Ok, now here's the sticky part. I have asked in these topics before the following question; "why does God HAVE to create as literally described in Genesis? What if, say, God created at the time of the Big Bang? Jesus could still have appeared and taught his lessons, so what's the big deal?"

    Here is the answer that I mostly got, paraphrased of course;

    "Because without a literal Genesis, the is no story of the fall of man. There is no eating of the apple and its resulting consequnces".

    Logical. If there is a God, then there has to be an explanation for him creating the imperfect if he himself is perfect.

    What if we look at that in a different context? What if it was not that we are imperfect as punishment? What if there is another reason? Such as the explanation given at the end of the War of the Worlds for the existence of disease? Being native to this planet gave us immunities built up over time that the Martians did not share. It saved the world. Or that other movie that had Mel Gibson and tin foil hats... the name escapes me now... but in that movie Mel is a preacher who gets mad at God when his wife is tragically killed. Later on, one of the aliens who have invaded the Earth tries to gas his son, who has athsma, and for that reason isn't killed. Mel gets the message... God does things for a reason, and returns to the service of God.

    Why can't you use the famous strange and mysterious ways clause to explain the imperfection of man? Hell, it works for you with everything else.

    Your only answer can be, "because that isn't what the bible says".

    And so we come full circle.

    There could be any number of reasons that we are not perfect. Maybe we will BECOME God's version of perfect (evolution... hehehe) in the future but for some reason we had to take this path to get there. Maybe we need wisdom first.

    Also, I think there is something to the "fire and brimstone" aspect of a literal interpretation of not just Genesis, but the whole bible. Some think that man can't behave without the threat of a celestial spanking.

    If somehow, folks can get past this need for literal interpretation, things would be a lot better. For everyone. I mean, you wouldn't care if a Muslim was a Muslim if they weren't blowing us up, right? Well, Merry Christmas to you if you can find a way to teach your children the truth of science and the philosphy of God at the same time. For if nature is indeed God's work, then we only investigate it and appreciate it through science.

    Once upon a time, Roman Catholics had to face the fact that the Earth was not the center of all things. Did it destroy them?
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  7. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by scrogdog View Post
    Onve upon a time, Roman Catholics had to face the fact that the Earth was not the center of all things. Did it destroy them?
    No. But then some things have not met their end.

    I find it interesting that you say a Christian's only answer is sometimes just because the Bible says so (paraphrased). Let me ask you a similar question.

    What if un-believing man's (that would be you) understanding of science is wrong and that the Bible is right and matches science as Christians understand it were right? What then?

    So you see, both of us come full circle. The thing is, what you see as fact and truth is according to what is said by man who gets sick, ages, and dies. What Christians see as fact and truth are what is said by the One who created those facts and truths. You have said yourself that scientific study has reversed many scientific beliefs over the years and some scientific researchers have even lied. But I can tell you bluntly and without apology that God has never made a mistake, has never lied, and has never contradicted Himself. (Here come those who say He has and will pull Scripture out of context to show I'm wrong on all three counts. But they can be ignored because of their ignorance.)

    And, please, Scrog, for the sake of all that is just, right, and correct, do not use Catholic doctrine from the past or the present to make a point or present an argument. It is wasted on me and many other Christians. As far as I'm concerned Catholic doctrine belongs in the firewood pile with the Book of Mormon and The Watchtower.

    Merry Christmas to you, Scrog.









    U-u-h, what is it you celebrate this time of year?
    Last edited by bootlen; 12-20-2007 at 08:52 PM.
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  8. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootlen View Post
    What if un-believing man's (that would be you) understanding of science is wrong and that the Bible is right and matches science as Christians understand it were right? What then?
    Easy. As a famous economist once said to Congress; "when the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"

    You have said yourself that scientific study has reversed many scientific beliefs over the years and some scientific researchers have even lied.
    Right, but again, NOTHING has ever happened to "facts". Science does not create facts, it explains them. Christians have quite a tough time with this but I'm not sure how to explain it better. Einstien changed Newton's Theory about gravity. But gravity ITSELF did not change. See? Apples still fell to the ground the whole time.

    Anything in science that was ever shown to the wrong was the EXPLANATION of the fact. Facts don't change or go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them.

    But I can tell you bluntly and without apology that God has never made a mistake, has never lied, and has never contradicted Himself. (Here come those who say He has and will pull Scripture out of context to sow I'm wrong on all three counts. But they can be ignored because of their ignorance.)

    And, please, Scrog, for the sake of all that is just, right, and correct, do not use Catholic doctrine from the past or the present to make a point or present an argument. It is wasted on me and many other Christians. As far as I'm concerned Catholic doctrine belongs in the firewood pile with the Book of Mormon and The Watchtower.
    Well, the fact that many other highly intelligent people have read the bible and come to other conclusions is quite odd, wouldn't you say? Why are your conclusions better than thiers? And for that matter, why do they feel that thier conclusions are better than yours?

    Merry Christmas to you, Scrog.
    And Merry Christmas to you, my friend. I celebrate Christmas. It does not take belief to enjoy the warmth of friends and family. You could call it Ibble-Kabibble day for all I care.
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  9. #35
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    One last question. God breathed on man, but you were not one of them. So, how can you be so sure that man, as is his nature, did not screw things up (even unitentionally - not everything has to be about bad intent) between then and the time that the words were put on paper? Accuracy of translation can only account for what happened *after* it was written.
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  10. #36
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    Easy. As a famous economist once said to Congress; "when the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"

    Facts don't change. Man's comprehension of truth does.

    Right, but again, NOTHING has ever happened to "facts". Science does not create facts, it explains them. Christians have quite a tough time with this but I'm not sure how to explain it better. Einstien changed Newton's Theory about gravity. But gravity ITSELF did not change. See? Apples still fell to the ground the whole time.

    Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm good with science. One day it will all be explained. And I haven't a clue who will argue with you then.

    Anything in science that was ever shown to the wrong was the EXPLANATION of the fact. Facts don't change or go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them.

    And frequently, I might add. That should say something to you.

    Well, the fact that many other highly intelligent people have read the bible and come to other conclusions is quite odd, wouldn't you say? Why are your conclusions better than thiers? And for that matter, why do they feel that thier conclusions are better than yours?

    Very simply stated...mine are better because they are based on what God says. They feel their conclusions are better because of their own pride.

    And Merry Christmas to you, my friend. I celebrate Christmas. It does not take belief to enjoy the warmth of friends and family. You could call it Ibble-Kabibble day for all I care.

    Christmas, you say. Thank you. But to avoid being a hypocrite, maybe you SHOULD call it Ibble-Kabibble day.



    Merry Ibble-Kabibble Day!
    No reserve. No retreat. No regrets.

    For those who have fought for it, freedom has a sweetness the protected will never know.

    http://www.airwarvietnam.com/16thSOSGunners2.jpg

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  11. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootlen View Post
    Facts don't change. Man's comprehension of truth does.
    I have no idea what you are talking about. Seriously. Let me see If I can conceptually understand this... what is truth if it is not "an apple falls to the ground"? Are you saying that I should not believe my eyes, or that apples will start to rise tomorrow?

    Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm good with science. One day it will all be explained. And I haven't a clue who will argue with you then.
    Unfortunately for God, so far... science has explained more about the world around me than God has.

    And frequently, I might add. That should say something to you.
    I'm curious to know why you think this is so. Again, I use bronze as an example. The people who first made bronze had no idea why it worked. They only knew that it did. Over time... and MUCH trial and error I will admit... now we DO know why it works. That's why we make advanced metals today. That's why tomorrow we may make super-strong foamed metals on the ISS or the moon.

    However... our level of knowledge about metalurgy never affected the FACT (or truth I guess you would call it) that bronze could be made.

    That's what science is. That's what science does. It does not establish facts like evolution... it explains them. Then... once we understand how they work... the ingenuity of man goes to town, my friend.

    Uh... we don't understand how evolution works exactly... but it did inspire genetics and many medical advances. That doesn't change the facts though.
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  12. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by scrogdog View Post
    I have no idea what you are talking about. Seriously. Let me see If I can conceptually understand this... what is truth if it is not "an apple falls to the ground"? Are you saying that I should not believe my eyes, or that apples will start to rise tomorrow?
    If I might speak for boots, he believes, along with I suspect most of the religious, in an absolute truth. This is a truth that cannot be modified. I personally have no problems with absolute truth. In fact, I'd like to believe that our understanding of thermodynamic laws are absolute truth. If this is the case, then I'm convinced this effectively proves the existence of God.

    And even if we eventually learn that our concept of thermodynamic law has to be modified, it will only get us closer to understanding the absolute truth.

    If science can uncover absolute truth, I believe it will find itself staring at the face of God.

  13. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Schoen View Post
    If I might speak for boots, he believes, along with I suspect most of the religious, in an absolute truth. This is a truth that cannot be modified. I personally have no problems with absolute truth. In fact, I'd like to believe that our understanding of thermodynamic laws are absolute truth. If this is the case, then I'm convinced this effectively proves the existence of God.

    And even if we eventually learn that our concept of thermodynamic law has to be modified, it will only get us closer to understanding the absolute truth.

    If science can uncover absolute truth, I believe it will find itself staring at the face of God.
    Agree.
    No reserve. No retreat. No regrets.

    For those who have fought for it, freedom has a sweetness the protected will never know.

    http://www.airwarvietnam.com/16thSOSGunners2.jpg

    Proud member of KA Club

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