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  1. #1

    Need to replace Payne

    I Currently have 2 Payne systems. Upstairs is 3 ton - gas heat - furnace/blower in attic. Condensor outside (40 feet away). Downstairs is 2 ton - gas heat - furnace/blower in outside access closet. Condensor outside of closet a few feet away. Current system 20+ years old & 8 seer. I'm fairly convinced the old systems aren't too efficient - especially with newer electric and gas costs. Here's where I'm at...

    I tried Sears just for starters. I wasn't convinced that the pricing was too good, and the financing wasn't enough to get me over the hump. So, priced out their suggested equipment (Payne 13 seer - no conversion to 410). At retail prices, the Sears price was about 3x the retail comparable cost of the equipment.

    Now, I'm thinking I am going to get some local quotes (Fresno, CA area), but I could use some feedback on the following issues running through my head:

    1. I want to focus on efficiency (at least upgrade to 13 seer), but mindful of the costs. Where is my best value? Condensor? Furnace? Single-speed versus multi-speed blower motors? Brand? Crazy new funky ideas?

    2. Would I be better off keeping these old boys running and spend my money on windows, insulation, water heater, etc.? (Yes, I know this is an HVAC forum, and it would be heresy for you to recommend other upgrades...). By the way, all windows are either 20+ year old dual pane, or newer argon double panes, the duct work is quality, the insulation is better than most, etc.

    3. What about those air-cleaner ionizer devices at the intakes? Do they work?

    4. What about the refrigerant upgrade? Is it worth it? Is it important to upgrade all the lines as well?

    Thanks for the input/advice.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    southern IN
    Posts
    527
    Sounds like you could benifit from upgrading. In Indiana we can save our customers a ton with Duel Fuel ( furnace/ heat pump) applications. We install some Payne, but mostly Carrier.As far as ref. depends on your budget and how long you will live in house.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    194
    You have no choice on going with at least a 13 seer, they can't manufacture anything lower anymore, but you could go much higher; this is the A/C efficiency. The furnace would be AFUE 80% probably, you could go much higher. Consider a condensing furnace. Upgrading your windows is a great idea, that is where most of your heat loss is in most homes. Always get at least 3 estimates, maybe 5 or 6. Condition of duct work is very important. I am not a big fan of 410, but that is not relevant to your decision. Can you get any rebates from your utility company? In my opinion, there isn't much savings in water heater change outs, but sometimes with a remote bathroom location a tankless might be good. Do as much homework as you can and don't get in a hurry, know what your options are. Make yourself knowledgeable on the subject and you shall be rewarded.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Camel City, NC
    Posts
    6,232

    Payne

    I have no problem with their equipment line and have used it in the past. Only down side is they don't have a 10 year compressor warranty on HP or AC units.
    Be safe not fast. body parts don't grow back

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    N.C.
    Posts
    170
    Your best bet is to upgrade your system. Personally I like the Dual fuel system(gas furnace w/ hp) but since you in CA I wouldnt think you would need something like that. I would upgrade to the 410 since the price of r-22 will be going up since it's getting closer to the cut-off date

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    East Grand Forks, MN
    Posts
    1,373
    PAYNE

    I have no problem with their equipment line and have used it in the past. Only down side is they don't have a 10 year compressor warranty on HP or AC units.

    But they do!!!

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Posts
    33,898
    Built like a tank!



    If they have a 10 year comp warranty, somebody better tell their website!

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    DC Metro Area (MD)
    Posts
    3,368
    I have a Payne heat pump myself. They aren't the quietest and aren't built tough like some other units, but they aren't necessarily supposed to be. They're a value line of equipment. They can bring you years of dependable performance if installed and maintained well.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    6,829
    Quote Originally Posted by ZZZRSC View Post
    Upgrading your windows is a great idea, that is where most of your heat loss is in most homes.
    This is positively not a true statement. In fact, most people would be better of NOT replacing their windows as a first energy saving option. Here's why.

    As homes become tighter and tighter, it is possible to actually tighten them to the point that they do not exchange air often enough to maintain a good indoor air quality. Blower door tests reveal that most old homes leak at a rate that exchanges the air in the home anywhere from 18 to 30 times PER DAY, while the EPA recommendation for a home of the same size be 7 to 11 times per day. If all the holes in a home that leak are sealed, then where does the fresh air for air exchange come from? Commonly, people will seal all the most obvious leaks, windows being one of them and the leaks that are least healthy go right on leaking. So the home should first be tested by a blower door test. Then all the leaks that can be sealed with mastic, vinyl, silicon and similar products should be taken care of. One of the leakiest places in a home is through recessed light fixtures. Some can be retrofitted with air tight cans and/or trim, others cannot. Those accessible from an attic above can have a fire resistant housing constructed above them. Some just need to be replaced with air tight models. It's not uncommon to find 20+ recessed lights in todays homes, even older ones with new additions. Once all the basic tightening up of the home is completed, then it's time to retest the home via a second blower door test. The results may surprise you. It could turn out that the windows, as yet still original, are indeed leaking but they're leaking at a rate that fits right in witih the EPA recommendations, leaving the home with a more ideal leak rate of 7 to 11 times per day. If that's the case, a whold lot of money was saved on replacement windows. And in some cases, it's better to just replace those windows that will bear the best results. In the north country, that's typicallys north facing windows. In the south, that's frequently the east/south/west windows because adding low-e glass can also lower the AC needs. Tightening up a home is tricky business to do it correctly and there a whole lot of people/merchandisers out there willing to jump on the band wagon of 'replace the windows and door', including the government! Just because something is Energy Star rated, doesn't mean you need it.
    If YOU want change, YOU have to first change.

    If you are waiting for the 'other guy' to change first, just remember, you're the 'other guy's' other guy. To continue to expect real change when you keep acting the same way as always, is folly. Won't happen. Real change will only happen when a majority of the people change the way they vote!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Camel City, NC
    Posts
    6,232

    True

    Quote Originally Posted by RyanHughes View Post
    I have a Payne heat pump myself. They aren't the quietest and aren't built tough like some other units, but they aren't necessarily supposed to be. They're a value line of equipment. They can bring you years of dependable performance if installed and maintained well.
    I service all I have installed. None have failed going on 10+ years.
    Be safe not fast. body parts don't grow back

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    194
    Sorry skippedover, I don't subscribe to your theory that windows shouldn't be replaced because drafty houses are healthier. Your own info shows that houses have 2 to 3 times more air changes than recommended.

    "Blower door tests reveal that most old homes leak at a rate that exchanges the air in the home anywhere from 18 to 30 times PER DAY, while the EPA recommendation for a home of the same size be 7 to 11 times per day."

    Furthermore, nothing was said about drafts or air leakage. New windows gain efficiency through low E coatings and by having a gas filled void between the panes, not just by stopping drafts. I think air leakage is very minimal in any quality window manufactured in the last 25 years, and will not be signifigantly changed by new windows.

    Recessed cans have either an IC or NON IC rating. If they are used in an insulated ceiling the must be IC rated and will have an air tight can. If they are not in an insulated ceiling then the leakage shouldn't make any difference. If he has the wrong fixtures it would be a fire hazard and energy loser. Quality fixtures like Halo (also the oldest and most common) don't really have anything to seal. Cheap Chinese fixtures are another story.

    I agree an air leakage test would be a good idea and could be done as part of an energy audit before spending any money on upgrading energy efficiency.
    That's probably the only item I will agree with you on

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The Twilight Zone
    Posts
    2,964
    Quote Originally Posted by mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm View Post
    1. I want to focus on efficiency (at least upgrade to 13 seer), but mindful of the costs. Where is my best value? Condensor? Furnace? Single-speed versus multi-speed blower motors? Brand? Crazy new funky ideas?

    2. Would I be better off keeping these old boys running and spend my money on windows, insulation, water heater, etc.? (Yes, I know this is an HVAC forum, and it would be heresy for you to recommend other upgrades...). By the way, all windows are either 20+ year old dual pane, or newer argon double panes, the duct work is quality, the insulation is better than most, etc.

    3. What about those air-cleaner ionizer devices at the intakes? Do they work?

    4. What about the refrigerant upgrade? Is it worth it? Is it important to upgrade all the lines as well?

    Thanks for the input/advice.
    1. In my opinion, a 14 SEER (with 12 EER) offers the best combination of purchase price and true operating costs. 14 SEER will have one single-stage compressor. A variable-speed motor in the air handler adds another SEER point. Goodman is a great value. If you go with Goodman, get the optional TXV (regulates refrigerant flow to the evap coil).

    You have to do a cost comparison of your utility bills to decide if you are going for a heat pump with gas back-up or straight a/c with gas furnace.

    In June, I replaced a functioning 21 year-old, 7 SEER, Trane heat pump because Maryland electric rates went up 65%. With a new 14 SEER, 12 EER, heat pump, I have reduced my electric consumption used for cooling by 40%. We'll see how I do in the winter when I use the most electricity.

    2. You can never go wrong with replacing windows, adding insulation, etc.

    3. No. Save your money. If you go with Goodman, get a separate 4" media cabinet as their filter rack for the 1" filter is poorly designed.

    4. If the lines are sized correctly, they should be OK. If you're changing to 410A, they may have to be replaced. I stayed with R22 with my new heat pump.

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