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  1. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidInAustin View Post
    This is my reasoning and from what I have read must be taken into account. In real world conditions (not pure CO, or Pure Oxygen) The connection and answer is in the mixes friend...

    For mixed gasses just take a proportionate average:
    Air is 80% N2 + 20% O2 .
    air = 0.8(28) + 0.2(32) = 29 (exactly neutral, by definition)

    So pure carbon monoxide is actually about 3% lighter than air.
    But usually it is mixed in with the normal combustion products: CO2 - (CO2= (12+16+16)= 44, heavy)
    and H2O. Which are always mixed with the 80% Nitrogen that never participates in burning.


    Hmmmm....Think about it! Gn

    D

    PS - If I am wrong about this please let me know.
    You make for a good discussion David thanks.

    The problem occurs when we combine basic air movement in a building from driving forces such as wind and stack effect into the mix.

    The flue gas can have temperatures from anywhere between 300ļ to 500ļ.
    When these gases spill due to whatever reason they are not heavy but very light due to the difference in density.

    The lighter heated gases will make their way upward through the building when mixed with ambient air while the heavier gases will tend to drop as mixed with the ambient air.

    This is why CO alarms that are plugged into a receptacle down low in a basement are useless in addition to the fact they have a UL 2034 stamp on them.
    They get exposed to carbon dioxide at this level not carbon monoxide.
    Have you set up a Google alert for Carbon Monoxide yet?
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  2. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wild View Post

    Thatís what I thought you were referring to but it threw me off when you said that it read 0 ppm on most of the PMís youíve done over the last 6 months. Itís extremely rare to come across a furnace that is safely running at 0 ppm. What is the accuracy of this meter? I would question all these 0 ppm readings youíre getting because to me it sounds like it isnít working.


    If I was to read 0 PPM in the undiluted flue gas I would be double checking the CO sensor in the instrument I was using.

    There will always be CO present in the combustion process, it's our responsibility to make sure it is within acceptable limits and stable.
    Have you set up a Google alert for Carbon Monoxide yet?
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  3. #29
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    Oct 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidr View Post
    If I was to read 0 PPM in the undiluted flue gas I would be double checking the CO sensor in the instrument I was using.

    There will always be CO present in the combustion process, it's our responsibility to make sure it is within acceptable limits and stable.
    Thatís what I was thinking so it raised a red flag when DavidInAustin said his CO readings have been 0 ppm most of the time in PM checks over the past 6 months.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidInAustin View Post
    I have a TP7 with digital wireless Printout. For $565.00, and a Factory calibration required yearly. I trust it when it says 0 PPM (most of the time in PM checks ive performed in the last 6 months) and I trust it the same when it says 400PPM (once in 6 months - The exchanger had a dime size hole in the top rung of the 4 tube exchanger)...Peak or Avg - It better work!
    0 ppm isnít Avg as davidr said. Iím thinking you need to send that CO sensor back for another Factory calibration.

  4. #30
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    Would be interesting to know if the instrument in question was Nox compensated.

    These will always read lower levels of CO than non Nox compensated models.

    The TSI I use is Nox compensated but don't ever remember seeing a reading of 0 PPM.
    Have you set up a Google alert for Carbon Monoxide yet?
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  5. #31
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    Aug 2007
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    MN
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    Haven't had a reply from the OP yet, too much CO? What have you found out? Dead? Living? Bad detector?
    You can't fix stupid

  6. #32
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    Nov 2007
    Location
    Austin Texas
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    Very interesting

    I absolutly enjoy exploring situations such as this. It is very enlightening. Beliefs and facts are only part of the answer(its the facts or dynamics of the situation blind to the observer that make the difference). It is the dynamics that change everything - One situation is ( I would guess) never the same outcome as another to different degree's.

    Thank you all so much - I can say that I have checked all of your answers, all of them are viable - Except the fact that there is information on the internet from professors and scientists bringing up examples of differences in each situation that would not agree with all (We together have said).

    This simply means - CO can and will act in different ways givin different situations - I think without giving examples the point is made clearly.

    One point i found interesting is ( for CO detector manufacture liability reasons) The manufacture of these detectors wont tell you a height to mount the detectors! In their instuctions they tell you to have more than one on a cieling hall way bedrooms - (Basicly @ different heights because of the points we have all been exploring). CO will not always do the same things! (point being stratification of gasses not possible)

    Someone will surely say - Co2 is heavy and will build up on the floor blanketing and preventing the CO from lower areas - Scientist disagree - Mechanical mixture will prevent this. In fact Each room may act different - Obviously poor duct design may save your life in a back beedroom 40 foot from the furnace as oposed to your wife who got mad at you and spent the night on the couch next to the furnace room!(poor lady, I loved that women!)...lol

    I think mainly the density is so close to Air. Temp - location - situation - mechanical mixture - Density based on clean - unclean burn(major factor in density) - Way way to many variables.

    Thanks!

    D

    One interesting point I read was - Locate a detector near the bed you sleep in at the height of your nostrals roughly! So to say that when a situation occures stratification or not ( the height that you breath in at night will be covered) - The problem I see is it doest always strike when your sleeping! You can be poisoned while answering this post! I think I read 12000 PPM will kill you in 1-3 minutes! ummmm...

  7. #33
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    Oct 2007
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    Variables inside a house can and do change all the time but the molecular weight of CO doesnít.

    In my house I have a low level CO detector located 6í off the ground on a wall 4í away from my nat. gas furnace, water heater, and dryer. I also have one on the main level in the hallway located again at 6í. No matter how the variables may change in my house everyone is protected no matter where they are.

    The low level CO detectors also have a memory built in to store peak levels, which is a great feature because it lets me know whatís been happening while weíre away. Never had a reading above zero yet on either one!

    So youíd think by doing that I am safe and not getting poisoned by carbon monoxide, right? Wrong! I have a third low level CO detector that has gone off a dozen times over the last year alerting me to the fact that I was being poisoned, everywhere from 30 ppm to over 400 ppm. This third detector isnít in my house itís in my pocket.(Kind of brings a whole new meaning to pocket protector! ) I never get poisoned in my home itís when I leave my home that I get poisoned!

  8. #34
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    Nov 2007
    Location
    Austin Texas
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    Wow!

    Very interesting! - Do flatulents count?

    *Again as stated in past posts - Some say... CO can attach to other gasses (moleculary hot when bonded) such as CO2 during and as a part of combustion (44 weight) for a non spcific time. This changes the weight of the combination of gasses while they are mixed. I think the point is Gasses dont readily separate in seconds (obviously not always) - It takes some time and also to not be mechanically mixed by the blower (if its running they mix!) - from what I have read in scientific websites! - Again, not absoulutly positive this is true)

    Point - Just as particulate such as (particals of soot - more heavy than "Air" combine with air and float for some time - will eventually separate and fall to earth(or attach to something else) - as they do not have neutral bouyancy, such as "Air")

    It is true, the weight of CO doesnt change - Pure CO that is...

  9. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidInAustin View Post
    Very interesting! - Do flatulents count?
    Youíre on your own on that one. Thatís one place I never insert my probe...

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidInAustin
    *Again as stated in past posts - Some say... CO can attach to other gasses (moleculary hot when bonded) such as CO2 during and as a part of combustion (44 weight) for a non spcific time. This changes the weight of the combination of gasses while they are mixed. I think the point is Gasses dont readily separate in seconds (obviously not always) - It takes some time and also to not be mechanically mixed by the blower (if its running they mix!) - from what I have read in scientific websites! - Again, not absoulutly positive this is true)

    Point - Just as particulate such as (particals of soot - more heavy than "Air" combine with air and float for some time - will eventually separate and fall to earth(or attach to something else) - as they do not have neutral bouyancy, such as "Air")

    It is true, the weight of CO doesnt change - Pure CO that is...
    There is no way CO will ever come out of a fuel burning appliance and drop down to the floor and collect there. CO2 will.

    Placing CO detectors down at the floor would never help alert the homeowner of the problem any sooner. Eventually that CO detector would go off because the CO is going to mix very well with the air but itís not the best way to go. The worst case scenario to protecting yourself would be no CO monitor at all or having one that doesnít work. The next worse case would be a monitor that plugs into a 120V receptacle and gets placed near the floor of a basement.

    Reasons for why it is unsafe are:

    1.Itís not going to sound an alarm until it gets to 70 ppm for 3-4 hours.

    2.If you lose power it wonít sound an alarm even if CO reaches 120000 ppm.

    3.Being located on the floor of the basement it will take longer for the CO to get there due to CO being slightly lighter than air.

  10. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidInAustin View Post

    Someone will surely say - Co2 is heavy and will build up on the floor blanketing and preventing the CO from lower areas - Scientist disagree - Mechanical mixture will prevent this. In fact Each room may act different - Obviously poor duct design may save your life in a back beedroom 40 foot from the furnace as oposed to your wife who got mad at you and spent the night on the couch next to the furnace room!(poor lady, I loved that women!)...lol

    The CO2 variable is what makes unvented gas longs even more dangerous in a basement.
    The CO2 has nowhere to fall to and displaces the O2 at the already low to the ground burners.
    It's easy to check and see if this is happening on a furnace or water heater also, use a combustion analyzer and watch the O2 levels near the burners the O2 should not be dropping.

    You bring up a good point on poor duct design as it is a huge culprit in many CO related problems.

    Competing airflow situations in buildings make many flues intake ducts.
    Have you set up a Google alert for Carbon Monoxide yet?
    Click here to find out how.

  11. #37
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    Oct 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmajerus View Post
    Haven't had a reply from the OP yet, too much CO? What have you found out? Dead? Living? Bad detector?
    Well from what I gathered from the first post was that way back in May or June Matt bought a CO detector and almost immediately it read peak levels of 12 and has slowly risen to 31 since then. He also said that he has reset it a number of times with the same end result.

    I believe his CO detector is working. The slowly rising levels of CO in the home from at least the month of May(I say at least because before then I donít think he had a CO detector at all so this could have been going on for years) to November(his last post on this board) is of great concern.

    As for reasons to why he has not gotten back to us:

    1.We donít know the age or health condition of Matt. It could be that the continuous CO poisoning Matt has endured is now causing memory impairment and he has forgotten that he started this thread.

    2.The CO peak levels were rising which means the problem was getting worse. Itís only logical that the levels have/ will continue to rise. Matt stopped posting in November which is the time of year when you start closing up the house and use your furnace more. Given these facts it could be that the CO levels went from bad to worse with the changed conditions and Matt is now dead.

    If Matt is still alive and healthy he is lucky and needs to address the rising CO conditions inside his home immediately.

    He seemed like he was very concerned and thankful for replies and help. Would have thought heíd follow up when or if he found a solution...

    Quote Originally Posted by lotr13 View Post
    Any help or direction would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks,
    Matt

  12. #38
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    Westlake, Ohio
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    We really need a few more scientist's on the internet telling us what their theories might be.

    CO IS LIGHTER THAN AIR!!! It will always collect at the ceiling before it disperses to the floor and may never get to the floor. It does not mix with water or CO2 and make something else. A bowl of mixed nuts is still a bowl of mixed nuts and the heavy nuts are heavy and the light nuts are light.

    If 10ppm of CO was spilling into a room for 15 minutes, 1 hour or 24 hours, the maximum the room could get would be 10ppm. To get any higher you would have to have a higher consentration of CO. CO does not add and subtract. 10ppm plus 10ppm is 20 pp2m = 10ppm.

    If air was passing across a 1" hole in a heat exchanger at 1000 cfm and the flue gases contained 1000ppm of CO, how many parts per million of CO would we read in the airstream? Depending on, if there was a venturi affect, it would be between 1ppm to 10ppm or less. Checking for CO in the duct system to determine cracked heat exchangers is not practical.

    Rust is caused by poorly operating and serviced equipment. I would replace the contractor before I would replace the rusty heat exchanger.
    captain CO

  13. #39
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    Nov 2006
    Location
    Elkton MD
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    118
    This could have already been said but.. All home CO detectors have a service life of about 6 to 7 years, once activated before the sensor gives you a false positive or no reading at all. I toss all mine out at 5 years and buy new ones.
    Want the whole truth WWW.infowars.com

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