View Poll Results: would you call him/her a Christian

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  • yes: Christian

    34 72.34%
  • no: not a Christian

    13 27.66%
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  1. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by TB View Post
    True again, but it does not imply He is a second god. Verse 16 says Jesus created all things, Isa 45:18 says Jehovah did the creating. If both verses are true, then both creators are the same God. Verse 18 clarifies vs. 15, saying that Jesus was the firstborn, from the dead Jn. 1:3 says that nothing was made that has been made without Jesus doing it, therefore Jesus couldn't have been made himself, or it would not be true that all things that were made, were made by Him
    The verse says not of the dead, it says firstborn of creation. Your reasoning is false if you can't deal with what the scripture states. 1 Cor. 8:6 talks about creation and says that God is "of whom" all things were created, and Jesus was "through whom" all things were created.

    "So what? That does not guarantee that Jesus was considering it out of His reach to be equal to God, because that is not the only possible meaning of the comment. It can also mean that Jesus was not grasping at equality with God, because He already was equal with God, and in fact is God. Think about it, when was the last time Sysint made a conscious decision to become equal with Sysint?"
    I used the translation with the word "raven" for a reason. The scripture basically means that if Jesus was claiming equality to god he was stealing or seizing something that wasn't his. What would there be to understand about being equal to yourself? To bring it up would be illogical. It was brought up to signify the difference.


    "If you don't want to be associated with JW's then don't believe their doctrine." -- My point is that there are other Christian religious groups that do not believe in the Trinity. To say it's only JW's is a false statement by you. You are simply trying to provide a personal attack that doesn't sit well with me. Clean up your stage act.


    "...about the truth value of the NWT when I can read it for myself and pick out the self-contradictions in it. I didn't even have to look very far, they're obvious. ..."

    You will lose your premise about the accuracy of the NWT miserably. I'd take that challenge in a minute. Start a thread. The NWT has over a 7,000 instances of accuracy over most other Bible translations right out of the gate.
    Go ahead, start a thread comparing whatever Bible you like over the NWT.

  2. #106
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    Boy howdy was I in the wrong thread yesterday

    I need to dust off my ninja suit and get the katana out since you guys are chopping this topic to bits!!!
    Hmmmm....smells like numbatwo to me.

  3. #107
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    Not That this isn't entertaining, but......

    I really try hard to have the utmost respect for my fellow professionals and always assume the best until poroven wrong. I will assume that the purpose of the current discussion is to
    1)use the bible as a guide to accurately establish truth as god has revealed to us.
    2) Not to call anybody names (poopoo head and fart mouth being exceptions ).
    3) to help joe tech who may wander by and wonder about easter, and may find something helpfull about the trinity that may move him to take his relationship with god more seriously.
    If any of you claim to be conveying truth from God's word, Remember: (James 3:17)But the wisdom from above is first of all chaste, then peaceable, reasonable, ready to obey, full of mercy and good fruits, not making partial distinctions, not hypocritical.
    - So what you say should be peaceable, reasonable and full of good fruits, what fruits? (Galatians 5:22-23) On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self-control... - If you have the spirit, what you do should be marked by mildness, self-control, peace.
    TB said it well:
    Quote Originally Posted by TB View Post
    The Christian perspective should be that scripture is right, and seek to line up their own opinion with it. With that perspective, there is no offense in being "wrong", merely gratitude at the opportunity to become "right", and therefore, no desire to avoid being accused of being wrong.
    That means we should see a reply saying 'good point' from time to time, boot did it, will you be civil enough to follow suit?
    Quote Originally Posted by TB View Post
    .....then it must be true that the rest of the Bible supports this understanding.
    THe Bible CANNOT contradict itself, if you are of a different opinion, that is fine, but we are frying different fish at the moment, we'll get to that later.
    That being the case, the explainations offered should allow for the entire bible to be harmonious in their message, not ignoring anything.

    So - Be NICE!!! Be Reasonable! Be Open! No shame in making an honest mistake.

    I love scriptural gymnastics.
    Hmmmm....smells like numbatwo to me.

  4. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by sysint View Post
    Isaiah 9:6 states "mighty god". Not Almighty God. There is a difference. Part of the problem with you guys is you utilize the word "god" like a name. It's not a name. Isaiah knew the difference between a "mighty one" and the "almighty one". Almighty is never attributed to Jesus.
    Hmm. No mention in your post of referring Jesus as being the "Everlasting Father" spoken of in Isaiah. But I can understand why you avoid it...it totally destroys your point.
    Last edited by bootlen; 11-12-2007 at 12:09 PM.
    No reserve. No retreat. No regrets.

    For those who have fought for it, freedom has a sweetness the protected will never know.

    http://www.airwarvietnam.com/16thSOSGunners2.jpg

    Proud member of KA Club

  5. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by numbawunfela View Post
    I really try hard to have the utmost respect for my fellow professionals and always assume the best until poroven wrong. I will assume that the purpose of the current discussion is to
    1)use the bible as a guide to accurately establish truth as god has revealed to us.
    2) Not to call anybody names (poopoo head and fart mouth being exceptions ).
    3) to help joe tech who may wander by and wonder about easter, and may find something helpfull about the trinity that may move him to take his relationship with god more seriously.
    If any of you claim to be conveying truth from God's word, Remember: (James 3:17)But the wisdom from above is first of all chaste, then peaceable, reasonable, ready to obey, full of mercy and good fruits, not making partial distinctions, not hypocritical.
    - So what you say should be peaceable, reasonable and full of good fruits, what fruits? (Galatians 5:22-23) On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self-control... - If you have the spirit, what you do should be marked by mildness, self-control, peace.
    TB said it well:

    That means we should see a reply saying 'good point' from time to time, boot did it, will you be civil enough to follow suit?

    THe Bible CANNOT contradict itself, if you are of a different opinion, that is fine, but we are frying different fish at the moment, we'll get to that later.
    That being the case, the explainations offered should allow for the entire bible to be harmonious in their message, not ignoring anything.

    So - Be NICE!!! Be Reasonable! Be Open! No shame in making an honest mistake.

    I love scriptural gymnastics.
    #1, I am the LAST person to point out being polite omn this site. I am usually very "curt" and and without tact. But I DO LOVE truth, regardless of pain or lack of tact when it is being expressed.

    Additionally, I don't recommend correcting TB. He knows more about JW doctrine than MOST JW's. And the same can be said of his knowledge of Mormonism. And that knowledge gives him a definite advantage with Christian apologetics that he expresses so well.

    On top of that, TB is a heck of a lot more polite than I am.
    No reserve. No retreat. No regrets.

    For those who have fought for it, freedom has a sweetness the protected will never know.

    http://www.airwarvietnam.com/16thSOSGunners2.jpg

    Proud member of KA Club

  6. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootlen View Post
    ....Additionally, I don't recommend correcting TB. He knows more about JW doctrine than MOST JW's. And the same can be said of his knowledge of Mormonism. And that knowledge gives him a definite advantage with Christian apologetics that he expresses so well.

    On top of that, TB is a heck of a lot more polite than I am.
    I will agree that TB manages to stay civil most of the time. However he shares the same problem you have bootlen. You guys run around hyperventilating while purporting to expose someone and have not bothered to research the origins and basis of the doctrines you hold dear. Simple historical, Biblical research.

    Quit the "shoot the messenger stuff" and just support your arguments with the Bible and even accepted scholarly references. Then accept that those reading may be intelligent enough to see a logical argument laid out.

  7. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootlen View Post
    #1, I am the LAST person to point out being polite on this site. I am usually very "curt" and and without tact. But I DO LOVE truth, regardless of pain or lack of tact when it is being expressed.
    I feel like I'm only looking out for your best interests Bootlen. Like I've said repeatedly, you have some good things to say but as an ambassador...(2 Corinthians 5:20) We are therefore ambassadors substituting for Christ, as though God were making entreaty through us. As substitutes for Christ we beg: ďBecome reconciled to God.Ē
    If people turn away from what good you have to say because of your style, it is reprehensable if there is anything you can do about it. If I have medically diagnosed halitosis, God will use me all the same, and it provides an opportunity for others to show what is in their heart if they turn away (from the message ). But if I'm a slob who doesn't want to brush his teeth it is another story. God would expect me to clean up my act before i begin spreading the word.

    Besides, the time may come when you post and all you get is the reply 'It's just another boot-bomb, ignore it fellas, he does this from time to time.' That would certainly suck.

    Quote Originally Posted by bootlen View Post
    Additionally, I don't recommend correcting TB. He knows more about JW doctrine than MOST JW's. And the same can be said of his knowledge of Mormonism. And that knowledge gives him a definite advantage with Christian apologetics that he expresses so well.

    On top of that, TB is a heck of a lot more polite than I am.
    That is why I quoted him. He seems to have thought about what he has to say and, well, as he put it, we should have no desire to avoid being accused of being wrong, since it only gives you the opportunity to be made right.
    Hmmmm....smells like numbatwo to me.

  8. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfdog View Post
    I will agree that TB manages to stay civil most of the time. However he shares the same problem you have bootlen. You guys run around hyperventilating while purporting to expose someone and have not bothered to research the origins and basis of the doctrines you hold dear. Simple historical, Biblical research.

    Quit the "shoot the messenger stuff" and just support your arguments with the Bible and even accepted scholarly references. Then accept that those reading may be intelligent enough to see a logical argument laid out.
    This is for you, too, #1.

    TB and I both post truth as found in the Word of God, you guys come along and post stuff by those with absolutley NO education in those studies and have dreamt up their ideas within the last 200 years after 2000 years of agreement by those who HAVE been educated and agree on the accuracy of Scripture as presented by OTHER THAN the New World junk.

    Yes, my friend. I am going to attack within the confines of forum rules and the attacks will be relentless. You will not enjoy them, I can assure you...but only because the truth is offensive and without respect to man.

    Deal with it.

    Now, ya wanna get back to the issue at hand or continue to critique my methods? Because, my methods are not the issue of this thread. The real issue is MUCH more important.

    BTW, your wolf's fur is showing through the sheep's disguise.
    No reserve. No retreat. No regrets.

    For those who have fought for it, freedom has a sweetness the protected will never know.

    http://www.airwarvietnam.com/16thSOSGunners2.jpg

    Proud member of KA Club

  9. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootlen View Post
    ... after 2000 years of agreement by those who HAVE been educated and agree on the accuracy of Scripture as presented by OTHER THAN the New World junk.......


    BTW, your wolf's fur is showing through the sheep's disguise.


    You are funny bootlen.

    If you would do some research YOU would see that there has been agreement on the origins of the doctrines of chritianity in the last 2000 years. Those who have been educated and have researched admit that there has been an apostasy of christian doctrine and a melding of pagan worship into christian religion.

    The Apostle Paul warned that after the last of the apostles died off 'oppressive wolves would enter the flock' and 'speak twisted things'. Acts 20:28-30
    Apparently it was already at work within the congregation before Paul died.
    He spoke of 'every unrighteous deception' 2 Thessalonians 2:9,10

    By the 4th century the triune god concepts of ancient pagan religions were already well along in corrupting christianity and the Athenasian Creed established the term "trinity".

    The New Encyclopśdia Britannica says: ďNeither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ĎHear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lordí (Deut. 6:4). ... The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. ..... By the end of the 4th century .... the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.Ē

    ....If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism of the first Christians ..... was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity.... --Edward Gibbonís History of Christianity

    Just one of many things.

    You should be willing to check and see if those things that you hold dear really make any sense. Even more, do these things please God?

    Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites and said their worship was in vain because of the traditions of men mixed in with their worship. Mark 7:6,7

    You keep trying to make this personal with your little insults. Stop trying to shoot the messenger and check for yourself.

  10. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootlen View Post
    Hmm. No mention in your post of referring Jesus as being the "Everlasting Father" spoken of in Isaiah. But I can understand why you avoid it...it totally destroys your point.
    Hmmm. Here you are again not taking up my point on "mighty god" in deference to "almighty god". However, you are after this point. Tell you what... for one time refute my point. If you can't do it (which you can't) I've got an answer for this also. No problem for me.

    A better response would be to address my response, attempt to refute it and than bring up this point.

    Anyway, I'm ready for both. I thought I'd start with the easy one first.

  11. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by sysint View Post

    "...about the truth value of the NWT when I can read it for myself and pick out the self-contradictions in it. I didn't even have to look very far, they're obvious. ..."

    You will lose your premise about the accuracy of the NWT miserably. I'd take that challenge in a minute. Start a thread. The NWT has over a 7,000 instances of accuracy over most other Bible translations right out of the gate.
    Go ahead, start a thread comparing whatever Bible you like over the NWT.
    You know, that would be an interesting discussion...but I think you're blowin steam...unless you read a new book since the last time you called me out to back up this very same statement.


    When Satan squared off with Jesus in the wilderness, after Jesus' 40 day fast, We learn a few things about how Satan operates. One, he often uses truth, pulled from its context, and woven into the fabrick of his lie. The fact that truth exists in satans lie, does not make what Satan Says less false. The lie is still a lie. Another thing we can learn is that Satan can quote scripture very well, and does so, but uses it out of its contextual meaning. He quotes what is written without any regard to what is meant, or how it is applied.

    Though a debate would be fun, it also would only amount to a red herring, designed to distract from the fact that I have allready shown the NWT to be unreliable as a source of truth. It may have some truth in it, but conclusions drawn from it cannot be relied on to be true.
    TB
    Everyone knows something I don't.

    2 Chronicles 7:14
    14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

  12. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by TB View Post
    You know,.....

    When Satan squared off with Jesus in the wilderness, after Jesus' 40 day fast, We learn a few things about how Satan operates. One, he often uses truth, pulled from its context, and woven into the fabrick of his lie. ......It may have some truth in it, but conclusions drawn from it cannot be relied on to be true.
    You have shown nothing yet again. Your illustration is off base. If something is written down, that's it. You are questioning the accuracy of the NWT as a Bible. I'm telling you it's accurate. Discussing JW doctrine is another matter, of which many of you (you definitely) included are completely unable to separate in your minds. So then you lie to yourself and everyone else saying the translation is inaccurate. Not so.

    "It may have some truth in it, but conclusions drawn from it cannot be relied on to be true." --- I love this illogical reasoning. OK. Your Bible has thousands of intentional errors about God's name. Therefore, it may have some truth in it, but conclusions drawn from it cannot be relied on to be true in regards to God.

    When you take out God's actual name in the Bible over 7,000 times and replace it with LORD I suppose you could "Satan" that away with some "reasoning" but the fact remains that by doing so changes the "contextual meaning". Your Bible lies to you thousands of times. Satan's number one goal is to reduce God, challenge his authority, question his right to be God over people. I suppose if I called you "man" all the time, you might get a little aggravated?

    I see yet again you have no response to the intentional errors in your Bible translation. Your reasoning is also suspect.

  13. #117
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    Poor Bootlen. This scripture is fulfilled on you: (1 Timothy 1:5-7) Really the objective of this mandate is love out of a clean heart and out of a good conscience and out of faith without hypocrisy. 6 By deviating from these things certain ones have been turned aside into idle talk, 7 wanting to be teachers of law, but not perceiving either the things they are saying or the things about which they are making strong assertions.

    As we continue to go deeper into the topic of the trinity, or the proper translation of the bible, or any other topic, you will see the following occur:

    (Malachi 3:18) And YOU people will again certainly see [the distinction] between a righteous one and a wicked one, between one serving God and one who has not served him.
    AS your posts get more extreme, your credibility will fall.

    You should ask yourself: (Genesis 4:6-7) At this Jehovah said to Cain: ďWhy are you hot with anger and why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you turn to doing good, will there not be an exaltation? But if you do not turn to doing good, there is sin crouching at the entrance, and for you is its craving; and will you, for your part, get the mastery over it?
    Although you may not agree, I know you can get mastery, if you choose not to, there will be no exultation, and the effect of the Holy Spirit, with its peace, reasonableness, love, etc. will be seen to be lacking before all.....
    Hmmmm....smells like numbatwo to me.

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