View Poll Results: would you call him/her a Christian

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  • yes: Christian

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  1. #92
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    You forget about
    Isaiah 9:6
    6 For to us a child is born,
    to us a son is given,
    and the government will be on his shoulders.
    And he will be called
    Wonderful Counselor, Mighty
    God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    Jesus Is not only "Mighty God" but also "Everlasting Father"

    So If Jesus was "Everlasting Father", Who was it He called "Father"?
    TB
    Everyone knows something I don't.

    2 Chronicles 7:14
    14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

  2. #93
    You guys are debating something that humans are not capable of explaining or fully understanding in our present form. We are just asked to accept God's word because it is true.

  3. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by TB View Post
    You forget about
    Isaiah 9:6
    6 For to us a child is born,
    to us a son is given,
    and the government will be on his shoulders.
    And he will be called
    Wonderful Counselor, Mighty
    God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    Jesus Is not only "Mighty God" but also "Everlasting Father"

    So If Jesus was "Everlasting Father", Who was it He called "Father"?
    Isaiah 9:6 states "mighty god". Not Almighty God. There is a difference. Part of the problem with you guys is you utilize the word "god" like a name. It's not a name. Isaiah knew the difference between a "mighty one" and the "almighty one". Almighty is never attributed to Jesus.

  4. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by icchvac View Post
    You guys are debating something that humans are not capable of explaining or fully understanding in our present form. We are just asked to accept God's word because it is true.
    That is an unreasonable conclusion. God made it abundantly clear who he was. Rather it's people going around using words like "Lord" and "god" and ripping out his actual name in the Bible thousands of times. Think about that. Your average Bible contains thousands of intentional errors massaged by doctrine wielding "christians". That's what clouds the nature of what God is.

    Similar to the way people introduce eggs and bunnies into Easter to cloud over what Jesus death actually meant to people.

  5. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by sysint View Post
    Isaiah 9:6 states "mighty god". Not Almighty God. There is a difference. Part of the problem with you guys is you utilize the word "god" like a name. It's not a name. Isaiah knew the difference between a "mighty one" and the "almighty one". Almighty is never attributed to Jesus.
    IF the correct translation of Jn. 1:1 should read as, "...and the word was a god", and IF the correct interperative understanding of Isa. 9:6 is that Jesus is being referred to here as, "Mighty God", thereby differentiating Him from the, "Almighty God" referred to as Jehovah, then it must be true that the rest of the Bible supports this understanding.

    Exodus 20:3-5
    3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them, for I Jehovah thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate me,


    Deuteronomy 5:7
    7 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

    Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

    Isaiah 44:6,8 Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God. 8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have I not declared unto thee of old, and showed it? and ye are my witnesses. Is there a God besides me? yea, there is no Rock; I know not any.

    Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith Jehovah that created the heavens, the God that formed the earth and made it, that established it and created it not a waste, that formed it to be inhabited: I am Jehovah; and there is none else.

    Isaiah 42:8 I am Jehovah, that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise unto graven images.

    1 Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.


    Now if Jesus is only "a" god, and not Jehovah God, then there must be at least two gods. If Jesus is only "mighty God" and not also, "almighty God" then there must be at least two gods. The three verses from Isaiah listed above declare only one God exists. Jehovah Himself declares that He is the only God. This contradicts the interpretation of Isa. 9:6 that suggest that more than one God exists, therefore that interpretation of Isa. 9:6, cannot even be supported by the same book and author of it. If the passage under speculation cannot agree with passages in the same book even that make clear declarations that contradict the speculations, then the speculations are false. The references in Isa 9:6 of "Mighty God" and "Everlasting Father" must be referring to Jesus as being Jehovah God.

    Paul says in 1 Tim. 1:1 that God commanded Him to be an apostle of Jesus Christ. In 2 Tim. 1:1 Paul says that it is Gods will that he be an apostle of Jesus.

    1 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Saviour, and Christ Jesus our hope;

    2 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, according to the promise of the life which is in Christ Jesus,
    Isaiah 44:17 And the residue thereof he maketh a god, even his graven image; he falleth down unto it and worshippeth, and prayeth unto it, and saith, Deliver me; for thou art my god.

    Why would Paul be commanded, by God, to be an apostle of Jesus, giving honor and glory to Jesus, when God commands in Exodus 20:3-5, Deuteronomy 5:7, and Isaiah 42:8, that all glory and honor is to go to God alone, unless Jesus is God..


    Now in 1Tim. 1:1, Paul credits Jehovah God as being our Savior, yet in 2 Tim. 1:10, he credits Jesus as our Savior, and in 1 Tim. 1:17 Paul says there is only one God, and the context of the passage reveals he was referring to Jesus as that one God, upon whom we are to rest total faith for everlasting life, an action condemned in Isa.44:17 if they are not the same God. Clearly, Paul believed Jehovah God and Jesus are the same God. In Jn. 20:28 Thomas recognized Jesus is God, and was not corrected by Jesus.

    Scripture does not support the supposition made in the JW doctrine and the NWT version of the Bible that Jn.1:1 refers to Jesus as only "a" God, nor does it support the supposition that Isa. 9:6 refers to someone other than Almighty God, by the words "Mighty God", and, "Everlasting Father".

    Furthermore, by rendering Jn. 1:1 as saying, "...and the word was a god", the NWT, and JW doctrine reduce Jesus to a god other than Jehovah God, which Jehovah God says is a false god, promoted by demons. Regardless of the name used to identify him with, the jesus the JW's and NWT seek to honor, is a demon.

    The Bible teaches us there is only one God. The occult, witchcraft and satanism, seek to convince us that there is more than one God, and so does the NWT and JW doctrine.
    Last edited by TB; 11-11-2007 at 05:14 AM.
    TB
    Everyone knows something I don't.

    2 Chronicles 7:14
    14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

  6. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by sysint View Post
    Similar to the way people introduce eggs and bunnies into Easter to cloud over what Jesus death actually meant to people.
    The reality is that Jesus's supposed death and resurection were introduced into Easter, and the meaning of the eggs and bunnies has been forgotten, lol.

    Just another Christian usurpation of a perfectly good pagan holiday.
    If more government is the answer, then it's a really stupid question.

  7. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by TB View Post
    IF the correct translation of Jn. 1:1 should read as, "...and the word was a god", and IF the correct interperative understanding of Isa. 9:6 is that Jesus is being referred to here as, "Mighty God", thereby differentiating Him from the, "Almighty God" referred to as Jehovah, then it must be true that the rest of the Bible supports this understanding....
    And it does.

    As I've already indicated to you before, you have a hard time using the word "god". Look it up.

    Angels are called gods in the Bible.

    Jesus doesn't usurp anything with God. Jesus supports God in everything just as God wants him to do. Therefore, God can require anyone else to do as he says in regards to Jesus. That doesn't make Jesus Almighty God. That doesn't make Jesus the Creator. 1 Cor 8:6 rightly says things were created by God and through Jesus for a reason. Col 1:15 rightly states Jesus is the firstborn of creation, the image of God. Phil 2:5-9 rightly asserts Jesus thought it raven to consider himself equal to God. As John 1:1 states Jesus was WITH God. Nobody is closer to God than Jesus. That's why in John 17:3 the taking of information of Jesus the one GOD SENT FORTH means life to people. He has God's approval.

    The NWT translation is not the only one to correctly attribute an indefinite position of the Word being "a god." Some say "the Word was divine". I'm fine with either because what they convey is more correct than slipping into some English that doesn't exist to promote an agenda. Most other translations make this verse half literal and half not. They need to make up their minds.

    Anyway, get off the JW rants with me. I could care less about it. They have a better translation than the KJV and many others on John 1:1. Personally I think Moffatt or Goodspeed has a better one for this verse than the NWT.
    Maybe you should read "Truth in Translation" by BeDuhn and learn something before you spout off with ridiculous conclusions on John 1:1 and the JW's.

    Your conclusions are false as your premise is weak.
    Last edited by sysint; 11-11-2007 at 08:52 AM.

  8. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark beiser View Post
    The reality is that Jesus's supposed death and resurection were introduced into Easter, and the meaning of the eggs and bunnies has been forgotten, lol.

    Just another Christian usurpation of a perfectly good pagan holiday.
    Great point. Trinities existed for quite some time before it was adopted into Christianity too. That and also the Egyptian, Babylonian and Platonic views of the immortality of the soul and hell.

  9. #100
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    Have it your way sysint, you still reduce your understanding of the Bible to self-contradictions. Either there is one God, as Jehovah has said, or, He is a liar and there is more than one god, as you and the occult say.


    You did not attempt to defeat my argument. You merely supply passages that support your view if they are seen a certain way, yet they do not conflict with my argument either. From that foundation you launch the claim that my argument is false.


    I don't think so.
    TB
    Everyone knows something I don't.

    2 Chronicles 7:14
    14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

  10. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by sysint View Post
    Great point. Trinities existed for quite some time before it was adopted into Christianity too. That and also the Egyptian, Babylonian and Platonic views of the immortality of the soul and hell.
    Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blastphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blastphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. Case closed.

  11. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by TB View Post
    IF the correct translation of Jn. 1:1 should read as, "...and the word was a god", and IF the correct interperative understanding of Isa. 9:6 is that Jesus is being referred to here as, "Mighty God", thereby differentiating Him from the, "Almighty God" referred to as Jehovah, then it must be true that the rest of the Bible supports this understanding.

    Exodus 20:3-5
    3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them, for I Jehovah thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate me,


    Deuteronomy 5:7
    7 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

    Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

    Isaiah 44:6,8 Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God. 8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have I not declared unto thee of old, and showed it? and ye are my witnesses. Is there a God besides me? yea, there is no Rock; I know not any.

    Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith Jehovah that created the heavens, the God that formed the earth and made it, that established it and created it not a waste, that formed it to be inhabited: I am Jehovah; and there is none else.

    Isaiah 42:8 I am Jehovah, that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise unto graven images.

    1 Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.


    Now if Jesus is only "a" god, and not Jehovah God, then there must be at least two gods. If Jesus is only "mighty God" and not also, "almighty God" then there must be at least two gods. The three verses from Isaiah listed above declare only one God exists. Jehovah Himself declares that He is the only God. This contradicts the interpretation of Isa. 9:6 that suggest that more than one God exists, therefore that interpretation of Isa. 9:6, cannot even be supported by the same book and author of it. If the passage under speculation cannot agree with passages in the same book even that make clear declarations that contradict the speculations, then the speculations are false. The references in Isa 9:6 of "Mighty God" and "Everlasting Father" must be referring to Jesus as being Jehovah God.

    Paul says in 1 Tim. 1:1 that God commanded Him to be an apostle of Jesus Christ. In 2 Tim. 1:1 Paul says that it is Gods will that he be an apostle of Jesus.

    1 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Saviour, and Christ Jesus our hope;

    2 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, according to the promise of the life which is in Christ Jesus,
    Isaiah 44:17 And the residue thereof he maketh a god, even his graven image; he falleth down unto it and worshippeth, and prayeth unto it, and saith, Deliver me; for thou art my god.

    Why would Paul be commanded, by God, to be an apostle of Jesus, giving honor and glory to Jesus, when God commands in Exodus 20:3-5, Deuteronomy 5:7, and Isaiah 42:8, that all glory and honor is to go to God alone, unless Jesus is God..


    Now in 1Tim. 1:1, Paul credits Jehovah God as being our Savior, yet in 2 Tim. 1:10, he credits Jesus as our Savior, and in 1 Tim. 1:17 Paul says there is only one God, and the context of the passage reveals he was referring to Jesus as that one God, upon whom we are to rest total faith for everlasting life, an action condemned in Isa.44:17 if they are not the same God. Clearly, Paul believed Jehovah God and Jesus are the same God. In Jn. 20:28 Thomas recognized Jesus is God, and was not corrected by Jesus.

    Scripture does not support the supposition made in the JW doctrine and the NWT version of the Bible that Jn.1:1 refers to Jesus as only "a" God, nor does it support the supposition that Isa. 9:6 refers to someone other than Almighty God, by the words "Mighty God", and, "Everlasting Father".

    Furthermore, by rendering Jn. 1:1 as saying, "...and the word was a god", the NWT, and JW doctrine reduce Jesus to a god other than Jehovah God, which Jehovah God says is a false god, promoted by demons. Regardless of the name used to identify him with, the jesus the JW's and NWT seek to honor, is a demon.

    The Bible teaches us there is only one God. The occult, witchcraft and satanism, seek to convince us that there is more than one God, and so does the NWT and JW doctrine.
    Nice spot!

  12. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by sysint View Post


    Angels are called gods in the Bible.
    Sure they are. The devil and his angels are referred to with many names: Chemosh, Ashtoreth, Baal, Moloch, Dagon, Ashera, Diana, Mammon...




    Quote Originally Posted by sysint View Post
    Jesus doesn't usurp anything with God. Jesus supports God in everything just as God wants him to do. Therefore, God can require anyone else to do as he says in regards to Jesus. That doesn't make Jesus Almighty God. That doesn't make Jesus the Creator. 1 Cor 8:6 rightly says things were created by God and through Jesus for a reason.
    True, there is a reason, but it is not guaranteed to be that the two are seperate Gods, the statement would also be true if they were the same God as well


    Quote Originally Posted by sysint View Post
    Col 1:15 rightly states Jesus is the firstborn of creation, the image of God.
    True again, but it does not imply He is a second god. Verse 16 says Jesus created all things, Isa 45:18 says Jehovah did the creating. If both verses are true, then both creators are the same God. Verse 18 clarifies vs. 15, saying that Jesus was the firstborn, from the dead Jn. 1:3 says that nothing was made that has been made without Jesus doing it, therefore Jesus couldn't have been made himself, or it would not be true that all things that were made, were made by Him
    Quote Originally Posted by sysint View Post
    Phil 2:5-9 rightly asserts Jesus thought it raven to consider himself equal to God.
    So what? That does not guarantee that Jesus was considering it out of His reach to be equal to God, because that is not the only possible meaning of the comment. It can also mean that Jesus was not grasping at equality with God, because He already was equal with God, and in fact is God. Think about it, when was the last time Sysint made a conscious decision to become equal with Sysint?

    Quote Originally Posted by sysint View Post
    As John 1:1 states Jesus was WITH God. Nobody is closer to God than Jesus. That's why in John 17:3 the taking of information of Jesus the one GOD SENT FORTH means life to people. He has God's approval.
    Yes, and any time I volunteer for something willingly, I also am the one I sent forth, and I have my own approval too
    Quote Originally Posted by sysint View Post
    The NWT translation is not the only one to correctly attribute an indefinite position of the Word being "a god." Some say "the Word was divine". I'm fine with either because what they convey is more correct than slipping into some English that doesn't exist to promote an agenda. Most other translations make this verse half literal and half not. They need to make up their minds.
    Then the NWT is not the only self-contradictory, and therefore unreliable translation out there. My bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by sysint View Post
    Anyway, get off the JW rants with me. I could care less about it. They have a better translation than the KJV and many others on John 1:1. Personally I think Moffatt or Goodspeed has a better one for this verse than the NWT.
    Maybe you should read "Truth in Translation" by BeDuhn and learn something before you spout off with ridiculous conclusions on John 1:1 and the JW's.

    Your conclusions are false as your premise is weak.
    If you don't want to be associated with JW's then don't believe their doctrine. There is a simple axiom in logic, that if the premises are true, and the conclusion follows from them, then the conclusion is also true. My premises are only as week as the Bible is, and you haven't shown the conclusion to be false.

    Where is the wisdom in believing a mans opinion, (when it is unknown if he should even qualify as a reliable authority), about the truth value of the NWT when I can read it for myself and pick out the self-contradictions in it. I didn't even have to look very far, they're obvious. I might as well go follow people like Jim Jones, or David Koresh, if I'm just going to believe what someone tells me to without thinking about it.
    TB
    Everyone knows something I don't.

    2 Chronicles 7:14
    14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

  13. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by TB View Post
    Have it your way sysint, you still reduce your understanding of the Bible to self-contradictions. Either there is one God, as Jehovah has said, or, He is a liar and there is more than one god, as you and the occult say.


    You did not attempt to defeat my argument. You merely supply passages that support your view if they are seen a certain way, yet they do not conflict with my argument either. From that foundation you launch the claim that my argument is false.


    I don't think so.
    God basically means "mighty one". There is one ALMIGHTY one, and that is the Father, Yahweh or Jehovah. What has happened is that this name is attempted to be erased by supposed Christians who take it out of the Bible thousands of times. Your Bible you read has thousands of intentional errors. As BeDuhn shows in his book "Truth in Translation", that NWT you guys slam with no basis is actually a very accurate translation. I don't care who did it, it speaks for itself. Not that it's the only one. However, you have to give JW's credit, they aren't bold enough to lie thousands of times and remove god's actual name from the Bible.

    Angels, (not the demon kind) are called gods in the Bible.
    Moses was called a god.
    Even Jesus was called a god.

    From that standpoint you can measure the mightiness of those and easily determine in most true sense, there is one Almighty God and Jesus doesn't measure up to those standards as he is less than Almighty, was the firstborn of creation.

    Here's a statement you cannot disprove in the Bible:
    Jehovah is Almighty God.
    Here's another:
    Jesus is a mighty god.
    Here's yet one more:
    Exodus 7:1And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh -KJV

    *note how the KJV has the intentional error by removing God's name. Here's God making a god. Moses is a false god? Compared to Yahweh, that's true. Compared to pharaoh, that's not true. To Pharaoh Almighty God himself said Moses would be a god to Pharaoh.

    This is the basis of your misunderstanding. You really don't know what "god" means in the Bible and want to make all mention of the word "god" in the bible comparitive to the same rank. False premise.

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