View Poll Results: would you call him/her a Christian

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  1. #768
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    Quote Originally Posted by sysint View Post
    If, as I've already shown you in the Bible somebody else calls themselves "I am" according to your statement they have to be God too.
    If somone asked John Glenn what he was when he worked for NASA, he would say "I was an astronaut," and he would be telling the truth. But if someone asked John Riffle what he was when he worked for NASA, and he said, "I was an astronaut", he would be lying.

    Ya see, it's true only if it's true. I know that is a difficult concept for ya to understand there, sys. But try to get yer head wrapped around it. It will open a whole new perspective for ya.
    Last edited by bootlen; 12-14-2007 at 08:15 AM.
    No reserve. No retreat. No regrets.

    For those who have fought for it, freedom has a sweetness the protected will never know.

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  2. #769
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    Quote Originally Posted by TB View Post
    Paganism didn't have just one God, they have multiple gods with a triad godhead, Isis, Osirus, and Horus.

    Christianity recognizes only one God, with three equal persons in that one God--just as the Bible describes Him to be.
    Thank you very much for responding. But I think you missed the question TB. Yes ancient pagan religions had more than one god, but some ancient pagan religions seem to also have had a concept that is remarkably similar to the trinity you are describing. the links take you to the posts, But the two answers given do not address the question: The trinity doctrine does not seem unique to christianity, the posts provide the reasons why. Among them are:
    Triads in several cultures (not just egyptian).
    The view that some triads are not to be separated.
    A penalty for viewing a triad as anything but one god.
    Several groups claiming that this indisputable universality is proof of inspiration
    The watchtower site saying the indisputable universality is proof the trinity has pagan, not biblical origins.
    Both sides of the dispute confirming the doctrine is not unique.

    Commentaries on 'I am' or that ancient religions have many gods do not address that.

    Here are the entire posts for your convenience:
    Trinity unique to Christendom?
    I always was under the impression that the trinity doctrine was neither original to christianity, nor unique to chritianity. But you made me wonder TB, so I did a little poking around and found:

    http://www.christiantrumpetsounding.com/lord_is_one.htm

    Which says: "The concept of a trinity was widespread throughout the Pagan world. In Japan there was a three-headed divinity called "San Pao Fuh." In India the trinity was called "Eko Deva Trimurtti" - "One God, three forms." The Babylonians also had a trinity, as did the Pagans of Siberia, Persia, Egypt, and Scandinavia. Long after the apostles died, the teaching that God is a trinity began to be introduced into the Christian church. It was championed chiefly by the educated converts from Paganism and resisted by ordinary believers."

    and http://www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/t...ct21.html#fig3
    Look for figure 3 and 4 in the page.

    "Col. Kennedy objects to the application of the name "Eko Deva" to the triform image in the cave-temple at Elephanta, on the ground that that name belongs only to the supreme Brahm. But in so doing he is entirely inconsistent, for he admits that Brahma, the first person in that triform image, is identified with the supreme Brahm; and further, that a curse is pronounced upon all who distinguish between Brahma, Vishnu, and Seva, the three divinities represented by that image."

    They apparently had a trinity with multiple members, by different names, and some got in trouble for differentiating between them. sounds a lot like the modern trinity.

    http://www.americanpresbyterianchurc...%20Worship.htm
    (hit control+f when the page comes up and put 'eko' in the 'find' box to shortcut yourself to the proper place.)

    these references seem to argue for the authenticity of the trinity based on the fact it was so widespread in ancient polytheistic religions. It's widespread-ness so clear and therefore (in their reasoning) obviously a fact. It was only later confirmed by the bible record.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TB View Post
    No man defined doctrine would come up with a definition of God as incomprehensible as that. there is no occult religion that subscribes to a God of that nature, in fact they all have pretty similar gods to each other, only the God of the Bible stands seperate in character from all the other man made religions....
    So perhaps the trinity doctrine is not so unique?
    __________________


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TB View Post
    Interesting, numba, you do your "pokeing arround" on watchtower society sites.
    Why does that not suprise me.
    The only website i could find that says it is a watchtower society website was the following:

    http://www.watchtower.org/
    On this site it said the following:
    This is the authoritative web site about the beliefs, teachings, and activities of Jehovahís Witnesses. The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. is a legal organization in use by Jehovahís Witnesses.

    This is not the same url as the previous posts, and the previous posts were from sites that were SUPPORTING the trinity, by saying it was very prevalent in ancient cultures. this prevalence, they argued, shows that it MUST be a universal truth. To this end they showed how there were not only triads in many cultures, as you observed, but that they also shared many traits common to modern trinity doctrine.

    The watchtower site, however, takes an opposing view. they say the fact that the teaching was so widespread in pre-christian times shows that the teaching is not christian, but rather an appropriation of a pagan doctrine into apostate chritianity.

    http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/article_04.htm
    (look about halfway down the page until you see pictures of people with three heads)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TB View Post
    I've done my own research into occult teachings, not researched material someone wrote about them, but their own material, and of the two systems--the Elder God system, (egypt, mormonism, philistine...) and the ancient ones, (babylon, sumerian, buddhism...) I've never seen a single reference to a three-in-one being.
    There are triads, esp. in the elder god system, but no other Trinity.
    They have a quote there about the Hindu trinity: "The book "The Symbolism of Hindu Gods and Rituals" says regarding a Hindu trinity that existed centuries before Christ: "Siva is one of the gods of the Trinity. He is said to be the god of destruction. The other two gods are Brahma, the god of creation and Vishnu, the god of maintenance. . . . To indicate that these three processes are one and the same the three gods are combined in one form."óPublished by A. Parthasarathy, Bombay."

    This agrees with my other post that "a curse is pronounced upon all who distinguish between Brahma, Vishnu, and Seva, the three divinities represented by that image"

    SO one says that prevalence is proof in support, one says prevalence is proof against, but they both say prevalence is a fact.

    I have not done a lot of research into the pre-christian origins of the trinity as you have. maybe you could help to reconcile the seemingly opposing ideas. the trinity does not seem to be original to christianity.

    Also, Please do not allow sysints posts to put a confrontational spin to my words. I believe we have been able to establish a raport based on common respect. I have no intention of abandoning that.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TB View Post
    Because sin goofed us all up, beyond our own ability to overcome its effects on us. God dosen't ask us to change the core of who we are. Everything I love to do, like hunting, fishing, target shooting, HVAC...is who he designed me to be, and perfectly compatible with the life He wants me to lead. The only time He asked me to give up something I love to do--hunting--was because it became my identity. I gave it up, though I'd of sooner given up my right arm, and He gave it back. What God does ask us to change is our attitudes, and control, and give them to Him. (He's a much better navigator of my life than I am, I've found). All the things I love to do in this world that are not self destructive, He made for our enjoyment, and He made me to enjoy them. As we go through the process of growing and learning to trust Him with our lives, He gives us more reasons to trust Him more.


    Good post by the way.
    Hmmmm....smells like numbatwo to me.

  3. #770
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    Humans think that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. However, God does not. That's all they were...imitations.
    No reserve. No retreat. No regrets.

    For those who have fought for it, freedom has a sweetness the protected will never know.

    http://www.airwarvietnam.com/16thSOSGunners2.jpg

    Proud member of KA Club

  4. #771
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootlen View Post
    If somone asked John Glenn what he was when he worked for NASA, he would say "I was an astronaut," and he would be telling the truth. But if someone asked John Riffle what he was when he worked for NASA, and he said, "I was an astronaut", he would be lying.

    Ya see, it's true only if it's true. I know that is a difficult concept for ya to understand there, sys. But try to get yer head wrapped around it. It will open a whole new perspective for ya.
    I see your mistake. You think "I am" is some sort of name or title rather than a phrase. Your analogy is incorrect because "I am" in no way would mean subsequently "astronaut" unless it's in the same sentence. It would be to what is talked about at the moment, not a couple thousand years previous by somebody else.
    Last edited by sysint; 12-14-2007 at 01:51 PM.

  5. #772
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    Quote Originally Posted by sysint View Post
    I see your mistake. You think "I am" is some sort of name or title rather than a phrase. Your analogy is incorrect because "I am" in no way would mean subsequently "astronaut" unless it's in the same sentence. It would be to what is talked about at the moment, not a couple thousand years previous by somebody else.
    Not meant as an analogy of names. Meant as a statement of someone making a declarative of truth or untruth. Jesus spoke about who He is...I Am...Jehovah God. He spoke it truthfully. Just as Glenn's statement about himself is true.

    How is it one person can so consistently miss the point of virtually every post as you do?
    No reserve. No retreat. No regrets.

    For those who have fought for it, freedom has a sweetness the protected will never know.

    http://www.airwarvietnam.com/16thSOSGunners2.jpg

    Proud member of KA Club

  6. #773
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootlen View Post
    Not meant as an analogy of names. Meant as a statement of someone making a declarative of truth or untruth. Jesus spoke about who He is...I Am...Jehovah God. He spoke it truthfully. Just as Glenn's statement about himself is true.

    How is it one person can so consistently miss the point of virtually every post as you do?
    Once again, you are trying to take something written in Greek and apply it to something written in Hebrew many, many years earlier and say it's the same thing.

    "Edwin Freed explains, ďthe meaning of the sentence in the mind of the writer was: 'Before Abraham was, I, the Christ, the Son of God, existed.Ē William Loader notes that the ďtext need mean no more than I am and was in existence before Abraham, still a majestic unique claim but not an allusion to the divine name.Ē The Simple English Bible paraphrases it as, ďI am the Messiah.Ē K.L. McKay notes, ďThe emphatic words used by Jesus in the passages referred to above [including John 8:58] are perfectly natural in their contexts, and they do not echo the words of Exodus 3:14 in the normally quoted Greek version.Ē
    --wiki

  7. #774
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    Now, I'm fully aware you will dismiss that arbitrarily so here's some more:

    John 8.58
    ειπεν αυτοις ιησους αμην αμην λεγω υμιν
    said he Jesus amen amen I say to you

    πριν αβρααμ γενεσθαι εγω ειμι
    before Abraham became I am (he)

    Exodus 3.14
    και ειπεν ο θεος προς Μωυσην εγω ειμι ο ων
    and said the God to Moses I am the being

    και ειπεν ουτως ερεις τοις υιοις Ισραηλ
    and said he thus speak to sons of Israel

    ο ων απεσταλκεν με προς υμας
    the being sent me to you

    NOT THE SAME in Greek either---

    BeDuhn states:
    Actually, “I am” is a very uncertain rendering of the Hebrew expression in Exodus. But those who promote the significance of the parallel between Exodus 3:14 and the expression “I am” in John say that the correspondence between the two is proven by the exact match in how Exodus 3.14 is translated in the Greek translation of the Old Testament (called the Septuagint) that was known to the New Testament authors and the wording used by John. A quick look at the Septuagint, however show this claim to be in error.

    The Septuagint of Exodus 3:14 has God say ego eimi ho on, “I am the being,” or “I am the one that exists.”…God does not say “I am I AM,” he says “I am the being.” “I am” sets up the title or identification God uses of himself, it is not itself a title. Separating “I am” off as if it were meant to stand alone is an interpretive sleight-of-hand, totally distorting the role the phrase plays in the whole sentence, either in the Greek Septuagint version of Exodus 3:14 or in John 8:58. There is absolutely nothing in the original Greek of John 8:58 to suggest he is quoting the Old Testament here…”
    --- Truth in Translation

    EDIT: "How is it one person can so consistently miss the point of virtually every post as you do?"... especially when the facts are overwhelming and readily visible?
    Last edited by sysint; 12-14-2007 at 04:27 PM.

  8. #775
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    Quote Originally Posted by numbawunfela View Post
    They have a quote there about the Hindu trinity: "The book "The Symbolism of Hindu Gods and Rituals" says regarding a Hindu trinity that existed centuries before Christ: "Siva is one of the gods of the Trinity. He is said to be the god of destruction. The other two gods are Brahma, the god of creation and Vishnu, the god of maintenance. . . . To indicate that these three processes are one and the same the three gods are combined in one form."óPublished by A. Parthasarathy, Bombay."
    A triune God and a triad of gods is not the same thing. I think there is an equivocation on the word "triune". A good description I have heard, that some find helps them grasp the definition better is: God the Father, is the author of the Bible. Within that Bible He authored, He cast Himself as the main character, named Jesus, defined as, wonderful, counselor, mighty God, Prince of Peace, Everlasting Father, creator, Savior, prophet, priest, King, friend, brother, guide, confidant, comforter, companion, navigator, master...and all the things He revealed to us about Himself. He is also the narrarator of the story, in the person of the Holy Ghost, about Jesus, authored by Himself. Sometimes I wonder to myself if it wouldn't be more accurate to describe the Trinity as : one God, three offices, rather than one God, three persons, as in the owner of the company, the service tech, and the secretary, yet all three are the same employee. I think though that one God, three persons is a bit more accurate, even if less graspable.

    Say for instance, Mr. Pest called my three office--one employee company, wanting some advice on how to work on his furnace, and I answered the phone. I respond to his question of how much oil pressure the pump should put out, by saying that I'm just the guy that answers the phone, but I can have our service tech stop by. Mr. Pest says, "No, thats ok, I'll figure it out." and hangs up the phone. A short while later, Mr. Pest calls back, I answer, and he asks, " I finally got it to light, but how do I clean up all this soot that blew out of my furnace? I've tried wipeing it up, but it just smears all over the place." I say, " Tell you what, I'll send my tech right over." Mr. Pest replied, " no, thats ok, I'll get it." A bit later, Mr. Pest calls back, I answer, and he says, " Well, my furnace quit again, so I took off the copper pipe from the pump to see if it was plugged, and now I have oil running all over, how do I shut it off?" I tell him theres a valve right at the tank. After a brief pause, Mr. Pest says, " Maybe I better have your tech come out so he can show me how to fix this." By this time, I realize that I don't want to get involved in this nightmare, so I say, "You'll have to call back later, and talk to the secretary. He handles all the new calls, I'm just the tech, and I'm in the middle of a Job right now." Mr. Pest says ok and hangs up. A while later the phone rings, I answer, and Mr. Pest asks for the secretary. I say, " I'm sorry, he's out of the office right now, working on a furnace." "Who am I talking to?" Mr. Pest says. "I'm the owner" "Well, can you schedule a tech to come out here and help me with my furnace?" "I'm sorry ," I say, "my secretary handles all that and he's on a furnace call right now" "ok, I'll call back later." and Mr Pest hangs up. The phone rings again, and Mr. Pest, irate now, starts in about how he wanted help but seems to only be getting the run arround. I say, " I'm sorry, I'm the service tech, if you want to leave a formal complaint, you'll have to talk to the owner, and he's out on a service call right now." "Well, how many people do you have working for this company??" Mr. Pest yells...

    Up to this point in my sorry story, Mr. Pest assumed he was talking to different people, because they each held different titles, but as soon as I answer the question by saying, "one", he will instantly understand that I hold all three positions, and do all three jobs myself.

    God describes Himself, in the Bible, as if He were three gods, with three seperate identities, doing three jobs which cross over in places. It would be very easy to understand His description as telling us there are three Gods, except He also tells us point blank, there is only One God. Three-in-One
    TB
    Everyone knows something I don't.

    2 Chronicles 7:14
    14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

  9. #776
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    Between you and me, numba, I don't think we need to establish the credibility of the Bible, it's understood. The Bible tells us that all of the occult religions are false. Regardless of the similarities with Christianity, they are unreliable as a source of truth for God, his description, and His character. That does not mean that they cannot have some truth in them, just that is is not reliable to depend on it as a source of truth. The occult existed before Christ came to the earth, but not before God, and it exists as the counterfeit of God. Counterfeit money must look enough like the real thing to be able to fool some people, or it would be a worthless counterfeit. Since the occult philosophies are religions designed by the Devil, it would be reasonable that he would design them as close to Christianity as He could, and with some, he did.

    Since your premise is that Christianity absorbed some occult definitions of God that existed before Christianity did, then it needs to be shown that they actually did exist before Christianity. The word is used, but the description is not of a triune God, but of a triad, or three gods forming a united being. It must also be shown that the occult was not trying to counterfeit that part of Gods character, before Christianity defined it accurately. Since we recognize the Bible is the ultimate authority on Christianity, and Gods character, then it must be referenced. Asserting that a triune God, as defined by Christianity, must be false because the claim was made that the occult also used the same definition--and therefore must be false because the occult uses it--commits the fallacies of Begging the question, and assumes evidence not proven.

    I have not seen any occult material referring to a triune god in its order--but I'll admit, that does not guarantee it doesn't exist.

    Claims from a website, are just that, claims. It has not been established that they are reliable, or that the author of them is a reliable authority.

    Since the reliability of the Bible is established, then we're back to looking at what the Bible says, to whoch I would referr you to my posts on page 22.
    TB
    Everyone knows something I don't.

    2 Chronicles 7:14
    14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

  10. #777
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    Quote Originally Posted by TB View Post
    A triune God and a triad of gods is not the same thing. I think there is an equivocation on the word "triune". ...
    Say for instance, Mr. Pest called my three office--one employee company, wanting some advice on how to work on his furnace....
    Interesting. This site explains the Brahma, Siva and Vishnu just the way you define the Trinity: http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/hindutrinity.asp

    "The gods of Trinity are not different gods, but manifestations of the same Supreme Iswara, who is also known as the Saguna Brahman or the awakened or dynamic Brahman. Since ordinary human minds cannot comprehend the oneness of the universe, it becomes difficult for us to understand this concept clearly. To summarize the idea briefly let us take the analogy of a person performing different tasks. Just as a person becomes different persons while performing different roles or duties in the mental plane though not in the physical plane, God who exists in innumerable planes simultaneously appears as the Trinity in three different roles. The difference if any is in appearances which is part of the grand illusion that He weaves all around us.

    That's the same explanation you give. Perhaps you want to change your story or discredit this explanation.

  11. #778
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    It's amazing the energy wasted in attempting to discredit each other.
    Perhaps you should have read the instructions before calling.

  12. #779
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrbenny View Post
    It's amazing the energy wasted in attempting to discredit each other.

    Amazing... That's what that is.?.
    Just another day in Paradise.

  13. #780
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    What amazes me is how many people call themselves Christian, and yet are satisfied with a once a week at best, glimpse into what the Bible says, (or rather, what someone says it says.)
    TB
    Everyone knows something I don't.

    2 Chronicles 7:14
    14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

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