View Poll Results: would you call him/her a Christian

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  • yes: Christian

    34 72.34%
  • no: not a Christian

    13 27.66%
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  1. #755
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
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    SC
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    20,677
    Quote Originally Posted by TB View Post
    Of course you could have some fun and just hang out for a while just being a pain in someones assessment of scripture. The church we went to a few years ago just split, for the same reasons we left a year before. Everyone who thought we were the goofy ones for having issues, are themselves the ones that left. Splits ain't easy to deal with. Sorry icc. I seen the perfect church once, nice old fasioned style, steeple, bell tower, and all the money it needed. The best part was the people, the only ones ever went near the place were the ones dropping coins into it. Soon as you add people to a perfect church though, problems arise, and it ain't perfect anymore.

    I think now, it is not our job to be fed by a church, our job as Christians, is to be fed at home, in the Word, and take that strength to church for building it up. If they won't be built up, it's still our job to continue drawing strength from Jesus in the Word, and only leave when He tells us to.

    Stay in the Word amigo, these things can get as ugly as we are, but you've got an endless strength supply.

    I now attend a church that holds to a doctrine on baptism, and a couple other small things, that I disagree with. Maybe God led us there, so we could help their understanding, maybe so they could help ours. The thing that shines to me though, is, despite the fact they know my perception on baptism, and that I disagree with them, firmly, they don't care. One of the elders and me were even doing a Bible study together, in of all things, the book of acts. It took us three meetings to get through Acts 2:38, and still have no real agreement on it, but it don't stand between us either. Any church that attempts to make the claim, "...I am the way, the truth, and the life..." is dangerouse, that's where cults begin, but any Church that will take two opposing views and sit down with scripture to investigate them both is a good congregation.
    Sounds like a CofC but then you like musical instruments so I doubt you'd attend there.
    No reserve. No retreat. No regrets.

    For those who have fought for it, freedom has a sweetness the protected will never know.

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  2. #756
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Kenilworth NJ
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    947
    Quote Originally Posted by TB View Post
    Well, what post are you waiting for my responce to. I forgot, and I'll never find it now.
    Quote Originally Posted by numbawunfela View Post
    I always was under the impression that the trinity doctrine was neither original to christianity, nor unique to chritianity. But you made me wonder TB, so I did a little poking around and found:

    (Hit the 'go to post' button for the links)

    these references seem to argue for the authenticity of the trinity based on the fact it was so widespread in ancient polytheistic religions. It's widespread-ness so clear and therefore (in their reasoning) obviously a fact. It was only later confirmed by the bible record.
    So perhaps the trinity doctrine is not so unique?
    Quote Originally Posted by numbawunfela View Post
    The only website i could find that says it is a watchtower society website was the following:

    (Hit the 'go to post' button for the links)

    This is not the same url as the previous posts, and the previous posts were from sites that were SUPPORTING the trinity, by saying it was very prevalent in ancient cultures. this prevalence, they argued, shows that it MUST be a universal truth. To this end they showed how there were not only triads in many cultures, as you observed, but that they also shared many traits common to modern trinity doctrine.

    The watchtower site, however, takes an opposing view. they say the fact that the teaching was so widespread in pre-christian times shows that the teaching is not christian, but rather an appropriation of a pagan doctrine into apostate chritianity.
    SO one says that prevalence is proof in support, one says prevalence is proof against, but they both say prevalence is a fact.

    I have not done a lot of research into the pre-christian origins of the trinity as you have. maybe you could help to reconcile the seemingly opposing ideas. the trinity does not seem to be original to christianity.
    Thanks for the help!!!
    Hmmmm....smells like numbatwo to me.

  3. #757
    Quote Originally Posted by acmanko View Post
    Splits. That the problem with Non- denomination. after a few years nobody agrees and they split or backslide. sure fire path to Hell.
    Actually "our" impending split isn't due to heated disputes between anyone, our pastor left a few months back and one group wants to go back to traditional hymnal type church, and my age group wants to keep it like it has been, praise and worship type... "we" don't have the votes to win, so it's pretty certain where things are headed. Therefor, my peer group has decided to let our elders have their way, which could be the will for that church anyway as far as I know.

    I don't think anybody will go to hell for it.

  4. #758
    Quote Originally Posted by TB View Post

    I now attend a church that holds to a doctrine on baptism, and a couple other small things, that I disagree with. Maybe God led us there, so we could help their understanding, maybe so they could help ours. The thing that shines to me though, is, despite the fact they know my perception on baptism, and that I disagree with them, firmly, they don't care. One of the elders and me were even doing a Bible study together, in of all things, the book of acts. It took us three meetings to get through Acts 2:38, and still have no real agreement on it,
    Acts 2:38 (KJV)

    38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


    If I looked real hard the only thing i can think of to discuss is wether one receives the Holy Ghost before baptism or not until... is that the disagreement or is it something totally different? That's not a long verse.

  5. #759
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    9,564
    "and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."-- I would think that's it right there. Using Trinitarian logic you would have to ask "and ye shall receive the gift of God." What would that gift be and how would you know you had it?

  6. #760
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    forney texas
    Posts
    17,890
    the Gift would be everlasting life in the presence of God. there is no way but faith to know if you recieve it or not. cause when you die, you are buried and forgotten

  7. #761
    Join Date
    May 2002
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    9,564
    What is everlasting life? Some people are under the impression everybody is everlasting. If you add the before God, just what is that? Isn't God all knowing so from his standpoint you are in his presence right now? What about omnipresence? Are you saying God isn't omnipresent?

    Further, it's really talking only about the Holy Ghost, which is a distinct personality of God giving the gift (if you are a Trinitarian).

    I can understand it better anti-trinitarian where the Holy Spirit is God's force to get things done and you get that type of gift or help from him.

  8. #762
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    Aug 2001
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    forney texas
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    17,890
    life after death has been a quest of man since the beginning of time, some just want to join the gods, others desire to be a god.

  9. #763
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Eastern Washington
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    2,990
    Quote Originally Posted by icchvac View Post
    Acts 2:38 (KJV)

    38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


    If I looked real hard the only thing i can think of to discuss is wether one receives the Holy Ghost before baptism or not until... is that the disagreement or is it something totally different? That's not a long verse.
    Y'know, your right Icc, but I know of three ways it is understood.
    TB
    Everyone knows something I don't.

    2 Chronicles 7:14
    14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

  10. #764
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    Aug 2001
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    Eastern Washington
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    Quote Originally Posted by bootlen View Post
    Sounds like a CofC but then you like musical instruments so I doubt you'd attend there.
    Actually, the one I attend now is a C of C split off, that used the Southeast Christian Church (of Louisville Ky.) publication of their statement of faith, in our new member class. I shot enough holes in it, they decided to make their own statement of faith. We do use instruments, and have kind of a contemporary / traditional worship service, with both the hymn books and the contemp. Christian music. Our pastor is of a methodist background, one elder was baptist (he's the laid back one), and the other is from a Episcopal background. (He's the one I was doing a bible study with)

    They all know where I stand, and they can't deny how God works in my songs whenever I'm led to do a special during the service.
    Last edited by TB; 12-14-2007 at 04:23 AM.
    TB
    Everyone knows something I don't.

    2 Chronicles 7:14
    14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

  11. #765
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    Aug 2001
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    Eastern Washington
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    Quote Originally Posted by numbawunfela View Post

    Which says: "The concept of a trinity was widespread throughout the Pagan world. In Japan there was a three-headed divinity called "San Pao Fuh." In India the trinity was called "Eko Deva Trimurtti" - "One God, three forms." The Babylonians also had a trinity, as did the Pagans of Siberia, Persia, Egypt, and Scandinavia. Long after the apostles died, the teaching that God is a trinity began to be introduced into the Christian church. It was championed chiefly by the educated converts from Paganism and resisted by ordinary believers."
    Paganism didn't have just one God, they have multiple gods with a triad godhead, Isis, Osirus, and Horus.

    Christianity recognizes only one God, with three equal persons in that one God--just as the Bible describes Him to be.
    TB
    Everyone knows something I don't.

    2 Chronicles 7:14
    14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

  12. #766
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    Aug 2001
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    Quote Originally Posted by numbawunfela View Post



    I guess I am just looking at the most straightforward line of thought. It seems like there isn't much reason to think "son" means anything different than just that. "Father" is like my dad. It would seem kinda, not nice to try and confuse people, that's all.
    Problem is, we look at it with a western thought process, not hebrew tradition. To us, a son is one generation from the father, but it wasn't allways that way, including in our own history. To us, a name is a handle to specify who we referr to, but the Hebrews named their people with descriptions of their character, purpose, or state of being. Look into the name Jehovah, and stop treating it like a western handle. When Abraham was going to sacrafice Isaac, Isaac asked where the sacrafice was, and Abraham answered, "Jehovah jaira". When Moses asked the burning bush His name, he said, "Jehovah" translated as "I am", the same thing Jesus identified himself as when he said, "...before Abraham was, I am". Over time God's name began to be used by makeing contractions with it, like Jo-suah, Jehovah saves. When the Angel told Mary what to name her son, he said, Jo-suah, because He will save His people from their sins. The Greek form of Jehovah saves, is Jesus.
    TB
    Everyone knows something I don't.

    2 Chronicles 7:14
    14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

  13. #767
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    9,564
    When you refer to Abraham, he is Abraham.
    When you refer to Isaac, he is Isaac.
    Moses is Moses, etc....
    but when you get to Jehovah you change all the rules.

    You don't even do that with the name Jesus which means "Jehovah is Salvation" according to the Catholic Encyclopedia, which would be very odd as the Trinitarian always says Jesus saves, when it's really Jehovah that provided the opportunity for people to be saved.

    Further, you are trying to equate a common phrase "I am" in Hebrew strictly with Jehovah and then are trying to utilize a phrase in Greek that's similar and try to state Jesus is Jehovah. I have a hard time understanding how you put that together logically. If, as I've already shown you in the Bible somebody else calls themselves "I am" according to your statement they have to be God too. Or, when you see a similar phrase in Greek I can rightly come to a conclusion stating that Jesus was the same man mentioned in the Hebrew scriptures. Maybe he came to earth twice? I don't think so. That makes that Greek phrase not exclusive to God.

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