Do I need 2-stage heating and cooling?

[bzzline]

I have no idea what the Carrier outdoor heat pump unit may have if the indoor unit (carrier or goodman) has veriable speed blower you may need to upgrade the duct work for proper operation

[beenthere]

Sounds like the Goodman guy just doesn't like or understand 2 stage systems. So he's throwing wild excuses at you.

Don't waste your time with him.
If you want Goodman, get another dealer.

[bzzline]

The goodman guy could just be trying to save you money. When would the pay back be realized on these high end systems. Last time I looked replacement parts for these systems where six times those standard systems after five years.

[beenthere]

If he was just trying to save the guy money.
He wouldn't be lying to him.

Most times its the module thats bad, not the motor. The module isn't that expensive.
Most manufactureres have extended warranties 10 years that a HO can purchase. If he's worried about repair cost.

[bzzline]

It gets expensive when you have a lightning storm a week appart and have to change two control boards the following year ECM for the same reason

[beenthere]

We just change out several( at different houses) because of lightning storms.
The HO's home owners insurance covered the cost. After their deductible of course.

Compressors are expensive too, but people still get central A/C.

The question is, what is a persons comfort worth to them.
You may not find it worth much to you.
But many people value it a lot.
We have customers that request VS blowers. We give them the estimate with a standard blower and a VS blower, 80% choose the VS. And as you should know, it is a considerable increase in install price for that upgrade.


For most parts of the country, central A/C is a comfort feature, not a requirement.
I sell comfort, not cooling.

[MadeinUSA]

Sure it does, but I get your point. Say you Toyota Camry has 200,000 miles. When you go to buy a new car why wouldnt you think a Toyota Camry would be a good car? You have already had one that lasted with 200,000 miles on it. Sure a transmission could go out the 1st week you have it, but you have a good reputation with the brand. Thats my way of looking at things.

My installer did a great installing my parents Goodman 4 years ago, and then 1 year ago in their garage. No problems, clean install, and half the electric and gas bils that I have now. With those variables, price DOES have a bearing.

You have the same exact misconception most homeowners do, and that is you think an air conditioning system is just like a car or a refrigerator where you just plug it in or get in the car and start it and drive off without considering who actually built the car.

An air conditioning system is “built” at you home by the contractor and it’s longevity and reliability is based upon how well a contractor “builds” that system and whether he takes the time to perform the proper installation procedures while “building” your system without cutting corners.

Your system is being "built" at your home. That is not the same as getting in a car and turning the key. When you choose a car, you are choosing the manufacturer who “built” it, just like you are choosing a contractor who will “build” your air conditioning system.

You are not choosing a brand. You are choosing who can “build” a system for you that will last.

All of the brands are basically the same and it is who “builds” the system that counts. Nothing more.

Hope this helps.

[bzzline]

We just change out several( at different houses) because of lightning storms.
The HO's home owners insurance covered the cost. After their deductible of course.

Compressors are expensive too, but people still get central A/C.

The question is, what is a persons comfort worth to them.
You may not find it worth much to you.
But many people value it a lot.
We have customers that request VS blowers. We give them the estimate with a standard blower and a VS blower, 80% choose the VS. And as you should know, it is a considerable increase in install price for that upgrade.


For most parts of the country, central A/C is a comfort feature, not a requirement.
I sell comfort, not cooling.

ECM's are here there great they holdup reasonably well and every unit is going to end up with one. If we can afford them or not. In this area A/C is required I look to conserve resourses mine and the customer's

[beenthere]

The X13 will become more common.
Lower cost to operate then a PSC motor, and less expensive then an ECM.
As time goes on, ECM's will become less expensive.
The same as the PC. Compare the price of a PC in the early 80's to the current cost today.

[mothergoose45]

You have the same exact misconception most homeowners do, and that is you think an air conditioning system is just like a car or a refrigerator where you just plug it in or get in the car and start it and drive off without considering who actually built the car.

An air conditioning system is “built” at you home by the contractor and it’s longevity and reliability is based upon how well a contractor “builds” that system and whether he takes the time to perform the proper installation procedures while “building” your system without cutting corners.

Your system is being "built" at your home. That is not the same as getting in a car and turning the key. When you choose a car, you are choosing the manufacturer who “built” it, just like you are choosing a contractor who will “build” your air conditioning system.

You are not choosing a brand. You are choosing who can “build” a system for you that will last.

All of the brands are basically the same and it is who “builds” the system that counts. Nothing more.

Hope this helps.

I get what your saying now....makes sense. But you cant tell me a Carrier system isn't a better system from say a Goodman, both with the right install.
I just want a good system for comfort, and two stage seems to me like the way to go, being I have cold and warm spots in my home. The Goodman guy just seemed like he wanted to put in what he wanted and not me, the customer. Granted Carrier is more but seems more in line what I want.
Question for you guys. The Goodman system was going to be a gift, but I can get the Carrier Duel Fuel 16 seer HP, 80% furnace for $3500 out of my pocket. Would you do that?
I have asthma, would the infinity air purifier be the best bet,(does it put out ozone),or say a Homeywell F200? You guys are a great help.

[robc in WI]

My 2 cents. I was getting bids for a new furnace, all new ducts in the basement (90+ year old house w/octopus ducts, never balanced, no dampers), plus central air for the first time. Bryant dealer pushed top of the line VS high efficiency and a 15 SEER. The guy I ended up going with said that I would have problems heating the 2nd floor with the variable speed because it just wouldn't have the CFM at low speed to push the warm air to the 2nd floor. I talked about a 2 stage furnace and he said that while it might be a little more comfortable it will actually cost a little more to run in our harsh WI winters because it will initially fire at it's low setting, realize after 6-7 minutes that the house isn't warming fast enough and then kick into to high. This guy has been doing installs and ductwork for 30 years and he advised me to go with a lower SEER AC and a single stage high efficiency furnace because even with the new ducts he doubted the higher purchase price of the high end units would pay for themselves any time soon.

[beenthere]

robc.

Your 30 year experienced guy doesn't do much 2 stage work. If any. A lot of guys go around and say, after xx years I know those things won't work. Usually they have either never installed any, or did a bad install on one and blame the unit.

On low stage the furnace wouldn't need to move as many CFM's to heat the second floor. Hot air rises. It doesn't take a lot to "push it" to a second floor.

Your A/C needs may not justify a 2 stage A/C, but you would have benifited from 2 stage heat.

You should have asked the Carrier guy about this.

[robc in WI]

Actually he installs single stage, two stage and variable speed furnaces. In our case, 95 year old house, original windows, blown in insulation in outside walls and attic, he felt single stage high efficiency would be best in my situation. When it's 0' F outside do you want a furnace to wait 5 minutes to decide when to go to high output mode or do you want full output right away. that's how it was explained to me. When I get all new windows installed, tear out all the plaster and lath/install proper wall insulation, then maybe a variable speed/2 stage furnace will operate the way they are designed to in my house. That's a ways down the road for me.

[mayguy]

Actually he installs single stage, two stage and variable speed furnaces. In our case, 95 year old house, original windows, blown in insulation in outside walls and attic, he felt single stage high efficiency would be best in my situation. When it's 0' F outside do you want a furnace to wait 5 minutes to decide when to go to high output mode or do you want full output right away.

If you put in a two stage t-stat, then the t-stat can put the system into 2nd stage right away if needed, not waiting for the board's timer to time out.

[beenthere]

If it delays 5 minutes going to high, when its zero outside. Do you think your house temp is going to drop even 1 degree?

You don't need full output right away. Its nice though.
Some brands will go to high right away when the stat calls for second stage.

We install the York mod, its starts at 40% even when its below zero outside. (ok, we only dropped to 4* this past winter).
You wouldn't notice a temp drop in that 5 minutes.

[robc in WI]

Sorry guys I guess that I need to clarify my answer a little. His point was that in conditions like I mentioned the furnace is using gas inefficiently when in the low stage by not going to high right away. The guy says that a 2 stage isn't necessarily more efficient than a single stage but might be more comfortable in some applications. Still learning about HVAC from all of you pros so if I'm in left field on this I apologize.

[dhvac]

ok back to the op
your gas furnace could be 2 stage and variable speed if you go with a goodman
but from what you have posted here you should find another installer to do the job
it sounds like the guy you have is one of the reasons goodman has a bad name
there is just so much wrong with what he is telling you i dont have time to cover it all
you should find a better contractor and get what you want
there is a ton of info on this site as you already know, maybe you should point your installer in this direction

[beenthere]

He's right that 2 stage furnaces are for comfort, and not for savings.
They are great for old drafty houses.

Its your house, you choose the level of comfort you do, or don't want.