Used hussman protocol left open

[icemeister]

If this unit has only been exposed to the air and not direct rain or flooding, itś quite possible that no oil change is required at all...although itś stlll good practice to change it anyway, wet or not.

An interesting point about POE oil is that although it has a great affinity for moisture, it will become saturated at about 1000 ppm. This means that an ounce of saturated oil will contain about 1/2 drop of water. RobY of National Refrigerants recommends choosing a filter-drier with a moisture capacity (in drops of water) of half the total ounces of oil in the system. See his posts in this past thread:

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread....here-for-weeks

Note that he says the refrigerant in the system will also reach a point of moisture saturation, so if the system contains refrigerant, include that amount to size your filter-drier as well.

[eddiegoodfellar]

^^^^ thanks

[jpsmith1cm]

If this unit has only been exposed to the air and not direct rain or flooding, itś quite possible that no oil change is required at all...although itś stlll good practice to change it anyway, wet or not.

An interesting point about POE oil is that although it has a great affinity for moisture, it will become saturated at about 1000 ppm. This means that an ounce of saturated oil will contain about 1/2 drop of water. RobY of National Refrigerants recommends choosing a filter-drier with a moisture capacity (in drops of water) of half the total ounces of oil in the system. See his posts in this past thread:

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread....here-for-weeks

Note that he says the refrigerant in the system will also reach a point of moisture saturation, so if the system contains refrigerant, include that amount to size your filter-drier as well.

My understanding, and I'm open to being wrong, was that POE oil, once it got "wet" was junk.

This was the reason for the metal containers. It would saturate with moisture by "pulling" it through the plastic jugs and ruin the oil.

[Justin Crawford]

My understanding, and I'm open to being wrong, was that POE oil, once it got "wet" was junk.

This was the reason for the metal containers. It would saturate with moisture by "pulling" it through the plastic jugs and ruin the oil.

No correction needed, POEs hard on for water is why I started this thread

Pulled the oil out this morning, slightly milky

[eddiegoodfellar]

Probably in the dozen range Canada wide for supermarket competence, now if only we could get rid of these damn targets

Don't forget to check in with IVR and then update FMOC!!!!
Lol

[Justin Crawford]

Don't forget to check in with IVR and then update FMOC!!!!
Lol

TRA.....This guy better buy me lunch if he expects me to do that

[ICanHas]

If this unit has only been exposed to the air and not direct rain or flooding, itś quite possible that no oil change is required at all...although itś stlll good practice to change it anyway, wet or not.

What's with the funky font for your "s" ?

An interesting point about POE oil is that although it has a great affinity for moisture, it will become saturated at about 1000 ppm. This means that an ounce of saturated oil will contain about 1/2 drop of water. RobY of National Refrigerants recommends choosing a filter-drier with a moisture capacity (in drops of water) of half the total ounces of oil in the system. See his posts in this past thread:

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread....here-for-weeks

Note that he says the refrigerant in the system will also reach a point of moisture saturation, so if the system contains refrigerant, include that amount to size your filter-drier as well.

There are two ways water harms systems. One is chemical where water breaks down POE into organic acids and corrosive action on internal parts. Second is freeze-up. I think you can get away with more with AC that never dips below 32F. Whenever SST pushes below freezing point, there's always the chance of water condensing out and freezing up at the expansion device.

I would look at the cleaning process like this. HCFC and HFC refrigerants also have high water capacity. Filter needs large surface area to dry and the filter dries the refrigerant and oil rewets the refrigerant. In a vent free dryer, air is used as carrier. Evaporator condenses water out of wet air, then wet clothes diffuses water into dry air and cycle repeats.


This RSES journal is a good read:
http://sporlanonline.com/literature/110/110-140.pdf

Given the same temperature, when you put a piece of wood from 50% RH into 10% RH environment, it humidifies the environment, but if you put it in 80% RH environment, it dehumidifies it. When you use a supersized drier, you can get a lower PPM moisture. Rob's rule of thumb doesn't address excess moisture from improper handling, so capacity that is adequate for clean system might not pull moisture down from excess level to acceptable level.

The replaceable core driers are among the highest capacity driers available and they're cheap considering the shell is reusable.

[icemeister]

What's with the funky font for your "s" ?

¿Funky? I was practicing some Spanish and I forgot to switch my keyboard back from the international setting, so it's came out as itś.

There are two ways water harms systems. One is chemical where water breaks down POE into organic acids and corrosive action on internal parts. Second is freeze-up. I think you can get away with more with AC that never dips below 32F. Whenever SST pushes below freezing point, there's always the chance of water condensing out and freezing up at the expansion device.

I would look at the cleaning process like this. HCFC and HFC refrigerants also have high water capacity. Filter needs large surface area to dry and the filter dries the refrigerant and oil rewets the refrigerant. In a vent free dryer, air is used as carrier. Evaporator condenses water out of wet air, then wet clothes diffuses water into dry air and cycle repeats.


This RSES journal is a good read:
http://sporlanonline.com/literature/110/110-140.pdf

Given the same temperature, when you put a piece of wood from 50% RH into 10% RH environment, it humidifies the environment, but if you put it in 80% RH environment, it dehumidifies it. When you use a supersized drier, you can get a lower PPM moisture. Rob's rule of thumb doesn't address excess moisture from improper handling, so capacity that is adequate for clean system might not pull moisture down from excess level to acceptable level.

The replaceable core driers are among the highest capacity driers available and they're cheap considering the shell is reusable.

I agree there's a big difference between having moisture-saturated oil & refrigerant and having free water in the system as well. The OP stated the oil in his system was milky, so would that not indicate free water?

[ICanHas]

The OP stated the oil in his system was milky, so would that not indicate free water?

That's my understanding of it hence suggesting the clean-out process I posted and running it with a very high capacity filter core. Ontario Canada is cold, so if it got carried into a conditioned space at near 0F, there's additional moisture intrusion from condensation. PPM water vs color is dependent on temperature as well as refrigerant type, but if you follow the instructions on the sight glass, you should have a pretty good idea if its too wet. http://www.trane.com/Commercial/uplo...096_050703.pdf

If you read the RSES article I linked, you'll see that R-22 and R-134a holds water in the four digit ppm range. Evacuate, replace filter drier and charge is the standard procedure for automotive AC. A good automotive service machine uses one of those huge replaceable cores and employs a recirculation pump to filter liquid refrigerant through it as well as a means of non-condendsable removal. Design for stationary use as well as these features(oil separator, filtration, non-cond, removal) are the reasons it weigh 200 lbs rather than 25 lbs and many actually have factory authorized retrofit for R22 and R502. It's useless outside of institutional and commercial refrigeration as removed refrigerants can't change ownership unlike automotive systems and resis don't hold enough charge to make the use worthwhile.

So, instead of just pumping down, recovering and pushing it through the removable core filter on the way to recovery tank, flipping it over again to put it back in removes bulk of moisture.

[frigeguy]

No correction needed, POEs hard on for water is why I started this thread

Pulled the oil out this morning, slightly milky

Good Luck with that Justin....Correct remove oil, remove all filters, do not replace. Pull vacuum. Your still going to have some POE in it good luck getting moisture out of that. Keep changing vacuum pump oil. Adding heat helps but that's not always possible, see if you can hook up compressor oil sump heaters temp.

Uncle Greg

[ICanHas]

Good Luck with that Justin....Correct remove oil, remove all filters, do not replace. Pull vacuum. Your still going to have some POE in it good luck getting moisture out of that. Keep changing vacuum pump oil. Adding heat helps but that's not always possible, see if you can hook up compressor oil sump heaters temp.

Uncle Greg

Did you read the May 2000 RSES Journal I linked? On systems with many gallons of oil, filtration is something to consider
http://sporlanonline.com/literature/110/110-140.pdf

One of the articles I posted suggests oil change might not be needed. When it comes to dealing with many gallons of oil, filtration instead of replacing can be worthwhile. It discusses a filtering scheme that can be temporarily hooked up and clean the oil in 10 minutes of circulation like a dialysis machine.

To remove moisture, agitation and contact time is your friend. A vacuum above a standing puddle of oil won't release bound up water in POE, so you'd be wasting time to do this. Consider this. Sugar is dry powder, but when you get it wet, it does'

404A and POE both hold ~1,000 ppm moisture and a single moisture/acid combo filter and a core is like $30 (depending on brand...)

[craig1]

Filters and oil are cheap. I recommend using plenty of both . The protocol only holds like 3 gallons tops and oil changes on a running system are a breeze, especially if you have an apprentice handy to operate the oil pump against head pressure. You don't even need to shut it down, but you might as well so that you can swap filter cores at the same time

[MikeySq]

Uncle Greg

I was starting to think for a minute there before you posted this haha!