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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Minneapolis, MN
    Posts
    765

    Modulating boilers and modulating fan coils

    Be more comfortable and save money.

    MA

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Grottoes VA
    Posts
    5,856
    My lp gas rate is 2.30 a gallon, my electric is .07kwh. I can't justify the cost of a tankless. One of you tankless guys prove to me I can save money with one.

    Here is a calculator you can use.
    Karst means cave. So, I search for caves.

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    the Great Pacific Northwest
    Posts
    607
    I think something that was previously stated should be emphasized, that being the maximum flow rate, instantaneous water heaters have a minimum and maximum flow rate therefore you need to understand when sizing the unit my not meet multiple simultaneous uses, the other problem I've had with customers is if they have a large tub and a large valve to fill the tub it takes much longer to fill than they used to with a tank type.

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    5280
    Posts
    466
    When offering tankless water heater you have to explain all these concerns to the customer. We NEVER sell tankless based on payback, I don't think there is one.

    Yes fill rates on large capacity tubs can be slow, but you can fill the tub with out running out of water. My wife has a 65 gallon tub, she has no problem filling it. At my home every morning two showers are taken simultaneously then one immediately following the first two. Our 50 gallon tank could not keep up (wife and teenage son take long hot showers). We never have a problem now.

    We install a lot of Rinnai heaters. We will install 4 this week. Only one has ever have a problem, control board went bad. Every other customer has been very happy, because they know what to expect and what not to expect.

    Tankless is not for everyone, BUT they do have their place. IF they are installed properly, they will deliver a lot of hot water and do it more efficiently than standard tank heater.

    The biggest problems we run into when servicing systems installed by other companies are; most are installed incorrectly and the customers we feed a line of steer poop and now are upset about the performance of the system and that it has not saved them tons of money.

    Again, I am very happy with mine and our customers are happy with theirs.
    JMO
    "We'll have to outwit the fiend with our superior intelligence." Yukon Cornelius

    Some people are like Slinkies---not good for anything, but still bring a smile to your face when you push them down the stairs!

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    58
    Running out of hot water is one way to get them out of the shower. If my wife & kids had endless hot water , My water & gas bill would be very high. These tankless burn around 150-200,000 BTU . That's more than most of the gas furnaces that heat homes !
    I just can't see a pay back(vs tank type ) even for my own use & I can buy at cost & install & maintain

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    5280
    Posts
    466
    Rinnai water heaters modulate from 15kbtu to 190kbtu. If you are washing your hands it will fire on low only for as long as you are using it. If one person is showering you should be operating at less than half capacity depending on water DT, not the full 190k. If I have a chance tomorrow I'll clock my meter and see what it is burning with one shower. But yes, DON'T buy one for payback.

    Quote Originally Posted by farmboy1 View Post
    Running out of hot water is one way to get them out of the shower. If my wife & kids had endless hot water , My water & gas bill would be very high.
    There is an ON and OFF switch on the controller, 5 min in the shower, flip the switch, that will get them out of there.
    "We'll have to outwit the fiend with our superior intelligence." Yukon Cornelius

    Some people are like Slinkies---not good for anything, but still bring a smile to your face when you push them down the stairs!

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Beautiful, Philadelphia, the City of Brotherly Love!
    Posts
    1,120

    Add to that a stainless steel indirect water tank, which will last forever.

    Quote Originally Posted by BadgerBoiler MN View Post
    Be more comfortable and save money.

    MA
    With the money you save you can add a heated towel rail, that's living!
    http://usa.hudsonreed.com/catalog/Fl...rmers/325.html

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Home
    Posts
    17
    Quote Originally Posted by karsthuntr View Post
    My lp gas rate is 2.30 a gallon, my electric is .07kwh. I can't justify the cost of a tankless. One of you tankless guys prove to me I can save money with one.

    Here is a calculator you can use.
    Check out a previous post about tankless vs conventional water heaters.
    There is a post from me about cost savings.
    http://www.hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=132449
    I hope this helps.

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    160
    They are good but I have two things for you to consider.

    The entering water temp from the supply in the winter months.
    These units are based on temp rise so if you have 50 deg entering water
    from the street it will effect the temp rise curve.

    Second is the mounting location. Most water heaters are centrally located in the home. The Rinaii mounts on an outside wall. The extra distance away adds to the time it takes to get hot water to the faucet.
    You can add a recirc. pump to mantain loop temp. to correct this.More $$ in installation cost.
    They require 3/4 supply lines too. Which many older homes only have 1/2 lines.

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Beautiful, Philadelphia, the City of Brotherly Love!
    Posts
    1,120

    Do us all a great service, install the tankless, use as normal, check gas bill,

    report back on savings of just the gas bill.

    You can add in the quality of hot water.

    Then we can put this to rest.
    Btw, taking into consideration the cost of the unit with installation against the savings will open another can of worms.

    I personally would not install one of these in my house. I have a boiler and an indirect, both installed in 1986 with no service work done on either one since 1986. Oh the simplicity of a standing pilot, and a Taco 007. The boiler doesn't even have a vent damper.

    I plan on taking the radical step of installing a heat reclaim module made by Lennox. This will be installed on my 1986 era 11 seer HS19-411 Lennox condensing unit. This unit will reclaim the waste heat from the condenser, I am hoping the reclaim system will eliminate my boiler running to heat the indirect tank.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Ga
    Posts
    28

    Tank type

    I'm a plumber by trade and have put in Rinnai, Bosch,Hot shot,Norwitz, Seisco, Steibel and a couple of others of the tankless variety. Lot of electronic parts and boards to go wrong.I guess yall know all that repairing the newer heating a/c units.You might look into one of the newer fiberglass tank type heaters. No anode rods to stink, tank won't rust, 3 inch's of insulation, lifetime warranty. Rheem makes the Marathon, and I think State was making one awhile back. Some other brands, I think Ruud is a re banded Rheem.They cost around $750.00(50 gallon) and I've installed quite a few of those these days. David

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    255
    I just spoke with a tankless water heater rep a few weeks ago and he said that the unit has to be flushed twice a year to prevent deposits in the heat exchanger. I am not convinced that they have any more energy savings than an electric heater. Electric heat is 100% efficient and if your tank is well insulated like a Marathon, you hardly loose any of the heat. Then there is the flow issues. I would never install one in my house. I have the cheapest and easiest solution yet. Install a mixing valve!! I would like to hear more opinions from the people that actually fix them.

  13. #26
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    253
    I have a Marathon (electric tank water heater) - works great. I did speak with my builder about an electric tankless water heater and he claimed he put in several over the last couple of years and had to take each one out. He has had good success with the gas tankless.

    I could have had a propane tank installed and had a gas tankless installed but the economics didnt work out when you considered the price of propane and electricity. Where we live, it cost less to generate hot water with electricity than propane. The standby losses on the Marathon are suppose to be pretty small. We never run out of hot water. The space savings with the tankless was not an issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by echo8287 View Post
    I'm a plumber by trade and have put in Rinnai, Bosch,Hot shot,Norwitz, Seisco, Steibel and a couple of others of the tankless variety. Lot of electronic parts and boards to go wrong.I guess yall know all that repairing the newer heating a/c units.You might look into one of the newer fiberglass tank type heaters. No anode rods to stink, tank won't rust, 3 inch's of insulation, lifetime warranty. Rheem makes the Marathon, and I think State was making one awhile back. Some other brands, I think Ruud is a re banded Rheem.They cost around $750.00(50 gallon) and I've installed quite a few of those these days. David

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