ReplyI like Stay-Brite 8, it is a great product but all the IOM’s I’ve read concerning R-410A say Braze Joints 15% or better. If you can get the manufacture to sign off fine if not then you know what has to happen.
Good Luck
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I'm suppose to do a startup on a new 15 ton Trane split system. Straight a/c with a climate changer air handler and a TTA condenser. I call the foreman pipefitter to ask him what line sizes he ran as I have to pick up a lls and sight glass to install. He tells me he piped the whole system w/ staybrite 8 solder? He then asked me if that was ok, wtf? The insulators already covered it and he also says the Carrier guy was on campus and said it should be fine. I haven't met a fitter that reads the iom's that come with these units. What would you do? My name is going on the startup but i don't want to make the guy repipe the system. I've used the staybrite on residential splits, where there was a tight joint but never on the liquid line or whole system. Pretty sure I know what you guys are going to say but figured I'd ask before I let the higher ups know come Monday.
Chaos equals cash$$$
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I like Stay-Brite 8, it is a great product but all the IOM’s I’ve read concerning R-410A say Braze Joints 15% or better. If you can get the manufacture to sign off fine if not then you know what has to happen.
Good Luck
R I P Icemeister
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Not only the manufacturer but there are state codes that don't allow Staybrite 8. NY had us cut out all the joints and apply 15% before they would allow a modular convenience store to be shipped and set. State said no Staybrite on AC or Refrigeration joints.
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I would ask the inspector if it will pass code.It would not be up to code in many places.
This would put the ball in the other court I bet.
Take your time & do it right!
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I have used it on 410 installs and TXV replacements. It will be fine.
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Ive never used it on 410 but I think it'll be ok.
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That's pretty much dead on. What works technically, and what's legally required. On a gas line, code requires brazing (>840F melting point) with non-phosphorus filler (so, it would be high silver or some exotic filler) or mechanical joint.
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Thanks for pointing this out, ICanHas. I never knew that non-phosphorus filler rod needed to be used on natural gas piping. Copper gas lines are somewhat common in my area, and everyone I have ever known (including myself) who has needed to braze copper pipe together has used 15% sil-fos. I have never heard of an inspector in my area having a problem with it, either. I kind of wish I didn't just learn this. Very interesting.Originally Posted by ICanHas
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The reason for no staybrite8 in commercial buildings on pipe systems would be to keep the joints from melting in a fire and introducing a ton of refrigerant.
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When one of the metals being brazed together is ferrous(iron based), phosphorus bearing alloys are out, because it form a brittle phosphide which can crack and blow out or leak refrigerant. I don't have first hand experience of leak because of this, but why do it?
There are many things that will work perfectly after installation but long term effects must be considered. Natural gas is uh.. well natural and like most natural things, it isn't pure. It looks like contraindication of phosphorus has to do with reaction with hydrogen sulfide which selectively attacks the phosphorous containing filler according to Stephens (P. 353, http://books.google.com/books?id=7Cu...A353&lpg=PA353). I was wrong on the temperature requirement. It looks like code says >1,000F and less than 0.05% P. It might be fine in one place due to naturally low sulfur content, but not somewhere else with higher H2S or other factors beyond my knowledge..
ASME/ANSI B16.22 recommends the aforementioned as well. http://www.copper.org/applications/f...-fittings.html and here's a code which requires the same.
https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/...403&format=pdf
Code requirements can seem and can very well be archaic and asinine but maybe it was written by someone wiser than I am on the topic, so its not my place to argue it. Inspectors aren't magic. They're not going to know exact alloy you've used, but the extent of testing government agencies can go through following an incident is amazing. The government ordered a very extensive test to investigate a scuba tank explosion and the testing included composition analysis of the fragments to verify if they met federal regulations. I wouldn't doubt it one bit they'd do something similar if there's a serious accident traced to failed braze joint in a public works project. http://phmsa.dot.gov/staticfiles/PHM...es/3al3000.pdf
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International Fuel Gas Code and NFPA 54 National Fuel Gas Code are identical
Silfos 15 has 5% So if it has fos at the end it can not be used on gas lines
403.10.1 Pipe joints. Pipe joints shall be threaded, flanged, brazed or welded. Where nonferrous pipe is brazed, the brazing materials shall have a melting point in excess of 1,000°F (538°C). Brazing alloys shall not contain more than 0.05-percent phosphorus.
403.10.2 Tubing joints. Tubing joints shall be made with approved gas tubing fittings, brazed with a material having a melting point in excess of 1,000°F (538°C) or made with press-connect fittings complying with ANSI LC-4. Brazing alloys shall not contain more than 0.05-percent phosphorus.
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You have GOT to stop writing in such a condescending manner. I see this all the time in your posts, and it's extremely annoying.
To the OP, x2 on not using soft solder for flammability reasons.
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For what it's worth, I didn't see anything condescending in ICan's post.
On an interesting side note about soft solder and what can happen to it during a fire....
A few years ago a commercial customer of ours had a fire in a mechanical room. Someone had stacked a bunch of cardboard near some water heaters and it caught fire sometime overnight when nobody was there. The fire got so hot that it melted the solder out of some fittings in some water piping above the fire, which caused water to spray out and put out the fire. The gas piping was threaded steel pipe, and it was fine.
The place was able to get the mess cleaned up and re-open a couple of days later.
That right there is proof of why I think it's ok for soft solder to be on water piping, but not gas. As far as products such as ProPress being approved for gas, I would guess that even if the rubber O ring inside of it melted, the resulting gas leak would be small. Not likely a complete failure like if a solder joint melted. At least I would hope so.
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I've had this come up and I just redid all the joints with 15% or 45% depending on what flux was used.
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I have no idea what you're complaining about and it appears that the person I was replying to is of the same opinion. You're not paying my bills and I'm not getting paid to post editorials tailored to your specs. All kinds of people visit here and no one writing style can satisfy every reader. If there's something incorrect or misleading in my posts, I suggest you mention it so that I can correct it and be a resourceful post for everyone.
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I feel like there hasn't been enough long term studies yet and we can only guess. Refrigerant at saturated temperature on 3/8 OD 5/16 ID exerts 30.7 lbs (117F) and 25 lbs (100F) of pulling force on the joint. The force is spread around the effective surface area of the solder wetted area. Solder expands quite a bit more than copper unlike brazing filler so every time it gets hotter it gets pushed and as it cools down it gets pulled/peeled. If you repeatedly bend a solid wire it eventually breaks. How soon depends on how far you bend it and how many times. When lead free solder was just getting put into use, this happened quite a bit with electronic devices. Real world has sunshine, acid rain and what not adding onto stress. It might live past labor warranty but how about long term and is it code in your area?
If I had to guess, the stress isn't quite as bad for straight cool resi compared to refrigeration condenser that swings from ambient to whatever temperature condensing coil is set to ramp up to satisfy head pressure control. If its not up to code wherever it is the only right thing is to redo it or you're selling watered down milk and hoping you don't get caught. If its ok by the code I think it would be a good idea to re-do just the connections where it would be exceedingly costly to repair down the road like behind permanent display or equipment that requires extensive disassembly before you even get to the wall.
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What I was referring to specifically was the way you use words such as "ferrous" and then immediately follow it with its definition "iron based"
Perhaps you don't intend it to come across as rude, but it sure appears that you're of the mindset that your fellow members of this site are a notch or two below your IQ level.
Why not wait for someone to ask for an explanation before assuming someone reading doesn't understand what you're saying?
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What I was referring to specifically was the way you use words such as "ferrous" and then immediately follow it with its definition "iron based"
Perhaps you don't intend it to come across as rude, but it sure appears that you're of the mindset that your fellow members of this site are a notch or two below your IQ level.
Why not wait for someone to ask for an explanation before assuming someone reading doesn't understand what you're saying?
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One of the most common student gripes is instructors who use a bunch of jargons assuming they(students) all speak the same language. When you're reading along, all you've got to do is just skip it. It's quite different from having to sit through an entire lecture starting with how evaporation of refrigerant removes the heat. There's difference between clarifying in every day language to avoid confusions and adding gratuitous comments to antagonize.
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So you're assuming the role of instructor to all of us "students"?
Why not just use "everyday language" if you're concerned about alienating readers who may not be hip to your Latin "jargon"?
People do exactly that to flaunt their perceived intelligence and/or (in their minds) as a service to try and bring their audience up closer to their level. Even text books don't have to be written that way to get their point across.
Get my point?
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