HVAC-Talk..You're not being fair!!!

[markettech]

LOL Oh, I'm not that easy to get rid of unless I fall into another bout of banishment.

The point I was trying to make is that your speech about the site and it's management is a stance that is very rigid.
If you were invited to your examples' home with a bunch of other guests and everyone suddenly started pouring beer on your head while allowing other guests in their home to join in, would you feel welcome? If everyone was allowed to piss on the front porch except you, would you wonder why?

Does this site, it's sponsors and it's workers survive to be anything more than a face in the crowd without it's membership?
The preacher ain't the church...it's the flock that makes the chuch.

I happen to feel it's very important for everyone to be treated equally on this site and elsewhere. Your stance is that there is no room for equality when the powers that be decide otherwise??
What say you?

Let me break this apart:

The point I was trying to make is that your speech about the site and it's management is a stance that is very rigid.
If you were invited to your examples' home with a bunch of other guests and everyone suddenly started pouring beer on your head while allowing other guests in their home to join in, would you feel welcome? If everyone was allowed to piss on the front porch except you, would you wonder why?

I feel you are comparing apples to oranges here. First of all, if I were the only one getting treated like crap in a house full of 63K people, I would take it as a hint and get the hell out of there as fast as I could.

Second, what were talking about here isn't everybody gets to do it except you.......and maybe one other guy - were talking about "Uncle Bill". He's been a close member of the family since birth and by God he can do some things around the house that "Carmen's" new boyfriend better not even THINK of doing.

Pa gets to hang his hose wherever he dang well pleases - "Little Jimmy" better put that toilet seat back down.....or else.

Isn't this singling people out...just like you originally said? Yup, you bet your a$$ it is.........but.....it's different too.

If Admin sent a secret email to every other member on this site and told them they could use periods as a separator in sentences........but then every time I did it I got "spanked" - yeah, I'd be thinking WTF!!! I'd mostly likely take the hint about not being welcomed here and move on down the road.

Reverse this scenario though, and if Admin sent a secret email to James and said he could use those same periods any time he wanted, but the rest of us took a "spanking" for doing it..........I wouldn't feel unwelcome and do the "pouty stomp" out the door - I'd think "fine, James has got 30K posts and 6 years on me, guess he gets to do a few things the rest of us don't".

Chill, can you see where even though it's the same.............it's not the same?

..................chapter 2 shortly

[chillbilly]

Yeah mark, I do understand your point.
I don't agree with it, but I understand it.

The site rules are supposedly the same for everyone.
IOW, there are no clauses that would indicate different treatment of members will be given by admin.
Admin does reserve the "right" to arbitrarily change their policies and therein lies the rub, as far as I'm concerned.
You alluded to the fact that the site is privately owned.
No argument there. It's their site, but even private ownership has duties and responsibilities that must be adhered to.
I am owner of a private company too, but I am still subject to laws and regulations.
I wouldn't even consider closing my company doors because I feel government regulation is "unfair". And the same applies here. I wouldn't leave the site because I don't like the rules. Instead, I would do what any American should be able to do.....complain and lobby for change.

[markettech]

Does this site, it's sponsors and it's workers survive to be anything more than a face in the crowd without it's membership?
The preacher ain't the church...it's the flock that makes the chuch.

I happen to feel it's very important for everyone to be treated equally on this site and elsewhere. Your stance is that there is no room for equality when the powers that be decide otherwise??
What say you?

You are correct, without the members, the sight does not exist, much like without customers, your business does not exist, right?

Does this mean then that if you give one customer a break on their bill do to extenuating circumstances...........every customer better get the same break or they're all going to leave? I hope not!!

Shift gears now.......and I'll pick on James again. He was banned for 2 weeks and his ban was subsequently lifted far short of that time. Admin is losing all 63K "customers" because he gave 1 person a break do to extenuating circumstances??

Look at this yet from another angle. You're a business owner........Admin is, lets say for arguments sake, the owner of this site (hey, its my story so I can say whatever I want ). Admin sets a certain protocol in HIS mind as to what is allowable from whom and what is not. You set a certain protocol in your mind as to how you will handle billing, collections, discounts, etc....

Why is it as a business owner you can make decisions on a person by person basis (some customers get a break, some get a finance charge and a call from collections) but Admin can't unless it is uniformly applied across the boards to everyone.

A safe bet would say if your hand was forced exactly as you'd like Admin's to be...........you'd have so freakin' many volumes of rule books it would take you a month to page through the table of contents.

[Twilly]

If they make Twilli mad he buy the site. Twilli used to be involved in corporate take overs.

[markettech]

If they make Twilli mad he buy the site. Twilli used to be involved in corporate take overs.

Markettech thinks time for music: http://www.mtv.com/overdrive/?artist=1102&vid=26721

[chillbilly]

You are correct, without the members, the sight does not exist, much like without customers, your business does not exist, right?

Correct

Does this mean then that if you give one customer a break on their bill do to extenuating circumstances...........every customer better get the same break or they're all going to leave? I hope not!!

I have not and do not have printed rules and guidelines that would indicate to the customer what their price will be, nor do I have any disclaimers for them to read concerning "circumstances".
Once they have a signed contract, I am responsible for seeing that the terms are adhered to.

Shift gears now.......and I'll pick on James again. He was banned for 2 weeks and his ban was subsequently lifted far short of that time. Admin is losing all 63K "customers" because he gave 1 person a break do to extenuating circumstances??

That's a rather extreme analogy, don't you think?
You seem to be condoning at large rule changes and justifying it by asserting that preferential treatment will have no effect because a large number of members won't care??
That's the "everyone else doesn't think that way so you must be wrong" fallacy.

Look at this yet from another angle. You're a business owner........Admin is, lets say for arguments sake, the owner of this site (hey, its my story so I can say whatever I want ). Admin sets a certain protocol in HIS mind as to what is allowable from whom and what is not. You set a certain protocol in your mind as to how you will handle billing, collections, discounts, etc....

Why is it as a business owner you can make decisions on a person by person basis (some customers get a break, some get a finance charge and a call from collections) but Admin can't unless it is uniformly applied across the boards to everyone.

You've already covered this one and I've already responded to it.
Firstly, marketing and sales aspect dynamics from my standpoint make the comparison ridiculous. I'm a contractor. I make contracts with people.
If I deviate from a signed contract without a customer signature to express any addendum, I am liable. Enuff' said.

A safe bet would say if your hand was forced exactly as you'd like Admin's to be...........you'd have so freakin' volumes of rule books it would take you a month to page through the table of contents.

Nope. I would have a contract signed and I would be responsible for executing the terms of the contract as required and the customer would be responsible for their end as well.
Accountability.

[markettech]

I have not and do not have printed rules and guidelines that would indicate to the customer what their price will be, nor do I have any disclaimers for them to read concerning "circumstances".
Once they have a signed contract, I am responsible for seeing that the terms are adhered to.

This in and of itself is a contradictory statement. While you state you do not have printed rules, you go on to state that you adhere to the terms of the contract. Which is it.........printed rules, or not?

Do extenuating circumstances not come up ever while performing work under the guidelines of a signed contract?

That's a rather extreme analogy, don't you think?
You seem to be condoning at large rule changes and justifying it by asserting that preferential treatment will have no effect because a large number of members won't care??
That's the "everyone else doesn't think that way so you must be wrong" fallacy.

Extreme analogy?.................Not unlike a house full of people dumping beer on my head.

I'm not condoning at large rules changes, what I AM condoning however is an owner's ability to change things as needed for (A) Gaining more operational efficiency (B) It's his effin business and he can do what he wants.......(his and he being the site owners of course).

I am so far on the opposite end of the "everyone else is doing it" herd of cattle it makes me want to run in the other direction when I hear "this is what we're all doing" type of stuff. If I in some way implied "go with the group" was my way of thinking, I didn't do a good job of explaining my position.

You've already covered this one and I've already responded to it.
Firstly, marketing and sales aspect dynamics from my standpoint make the comparison ridiculous. I'm a contractor. I make contracts with people.
If I deviate from a signed contract without a customer signature to express any addendum, I am liable. Enuff' said.

You are a business owner who relies on customers to put food on your table. This website is part of a business that relies on its members to put food on their table.

Both are business owners, both rely on customers to generate income, both are privately owned, both have the ability to change day-to-day operations as they see fit, both are able to make decisions based on their individual preferences (and live with the consequences of doing so).

You deviate from a signed contract and you're liable - great, you are a stand-up business owner. What I'm hearing then is that if you make a mistake, you have the ability to rectify it as you choose (by taking the bitter bill and swallowing it). Possibly Admin should have that same ability, no?

Nope. I would have a contract signed and I would be responsible for executing the terms of the contract as required and the customer would be responsible for their end as well.
Accountability.

Accountability.....bearing the consequences for failing to perform as expected. I am not "in the know" about what happened behind closed doors and not in any way speaking on behalf of Admin because I really don't know (or care) why the decision to lift James ban was made........but accountability may be the EXACT reason James is back............just a thought.

[glennac]

Hey guys, lets settle down. I consider myself reasonably intelligent and I can't see anything to get all bent out of shape about. This is just a form where we can express our feelings and try to stay civilized about it. Why all the heat. Nothing is perfect. If you break the rules and get slapped maybe a little harder than another guy that an't going to kill you. Get over it. If you get suspended longer or don't get a pardon and have to serve out a full two weeks on the bench so what. If we ever get to the point that every rule violation has to be treated equally no matter how sever or light the violation of the particular rule is then we will have a system like the government schools have with zero tolerance and zero brains. Everyone then gets his head chopped off for any violation of the rules regardless of the severity of the individual offence. That’s my 2 cents I don’t mean to offend but if you feel like it jump on me now.
.

[markettech]

Hey guys, lets settle down. I consider myself reasonably intelligent and I can't see anything to get all bent out of shape about. This is just a form where we can express our feelings and try to stay civilized about it. Why all the heat. Nothing is perfect. If you break the rules and get slapped maybe a little harder than another guy that an't going to kill you. Get over it. If you get suspended longer or don't get a pardon and have to serve out a full two weeks on the bench so what. If we ever get to the point that every rule violation has to be treated equally no matter how sever or light the violation of the particular rule is then we will have a system like the government schools have with zero tolerance and zero brains. Everyone then gets his head chopped off for any violation of the rules regardless of the severity of the individual offence. That’s my 2 cents I don’t mean to offend but if you feel like it jump on me now.
.

Contrary to what it may appear, I'm actually enjoying the debate with Chill........I hope he is as well. I think we are both being civil, while at the same time expressing our differences on this issue.

Don't worry about offending me................ I can take quite a bit before I stomp away with my arms crossed.

I will tell you this.......I will beat Chill into submission on this because I am right and he is wrong

[Collin]

Yes you are.

[Collin]

Allow me to use another example. At a point late last year we had over 20 employees, pretty evenly spread out between Journeymen, 4th, 3rd, 2nd, and 1st year apprentices. In theory EVERYONE should be treated equally, but in reality that just doesn't happen.
The cream of the crop will always get special consideration.

[Twilly]

The cream of the crop will always get special consideration.

Yes Twilli is still here

[markettech]

Yes Twilli is still here

Since Twilli still here, Markettech think Twilli think song mean "other" kind of verb. ....