ReplyNobody has any input to add?
Professional Member
What is a typical temp difference between supply air and return air? Right now my TD is about 25d which seems high to me
Professional Member
Nobody has any input to add?
Professional Member
Are you having a problem with draft temp or foaming? How long of a run?
Experience is what you have an hour after you need it.
Professional Member
25' run with 5 90's. Has a 1HP blower. Return air flow is strong. 30d box temp return air temp 55d. Beer is warm (have not taken its temp Im guessing its in the 50's) Yes does foam too much too. I have no prior experience with these and followed Budweisers lead on this project. They set co2 mix and say its right now we need to get temp right
Professional Member
Site not allowing me to create new paragraphs in my posts so here is new post with more info to limit run on paragraphs. Its a tube in tube set up. 3 1/2 od poly beer lines inside an 1 1/2" pool hose supply line. Inside a 4" pvc return line. Line is wrapped in 1" wall closed cell armaflex. Ambient air is about 90d. I am pulling supply air from discharge air flow (25d maybe?) Unit has 2 9,000 btu units cooling it. I set one up as a slave and cycle the other to help as needed during high traffic times.
Professional Member
My understanding is the max equivalent length of a forced air system is 25'. Each elbow is equal to 5' so...
25' + 5 x 5' = 50' So this dog won't hunt. Does the owner say if it ever worked?
A glycol system is the best answer. Instead of a 1 HP added load to the walk-in, the glycol system will probably have a 1/3 HP compressor.
Experience is what you have an hour after you need it.
Professional Member
I have the same understanding as you 25 max and elbows are 5' too. This is a new install so no its never worked. I think the supply line is too small and the run is too long but I am getting good airflow return so I don't see why it wont work. Its really nothing more then an extension of the walkin box as long as you get enough air mix I would think it can be made to work.
Professional Member
I suggested glycol as well and he refuses to go that direction. Whats funny is the tap has a cold plate in it for glycol. I can chill the beer right at the head and he wont let me do it
Professional Member
The owner got f*&ked by the installing contractor (hope it's not you).
I have found most bar owner/operators have no idea about the proper dispensing of draft beer. Your customer sounds like a bone-head. And I learned early on, you lose money with these types of customers.
Tube in tube system, well installed, 1 HP blower, but still a high return temp? Again, this dog is not going to hunt.
Try one more time to explain how a glycol system will save him on energy costs, and beer lose. If he still refuses, explain after he has spent a grand or 2 to find out no one else can fix this poor design, you would be very happy to install the proper glycol system. Then walk away. Hopefully he will call you back.
Experience is what you have an hour after you need it.
Regular Guest
If you're pushing beer 25 ft with just CO2, you'll probably always have a foaming problem. Most big installs use compressed air+CO2 mix to move beer that far, don't they?
I think glycol is the only way you can get the temp down and actually chill the beer. A 1HP blower and high velocity system may not provide heat transfer. It seems like the air "whips by" too fast and doesn't exchange heat (non-scientifc assessment - free of charge).
Professional Member
LMAO Thanks guys. He is a friend I am only involved as a favor to him. I have been skeptical from the get go. He use to work for Bud and this is his and his buddies design. Yes he is a bonehead but what can you do he is a friend too. I do what I can for him but without any engineering data or even a firm understanding of its design I cant offer him much in terms of solutions.
Professional Member*
All you can do is present the facts. This is what you have = doesn't work (verified with several reputable sources in the field). This is the fix = glycol. Take it or leave it, no sense trying to argue, get married to a POS that won't work, and have it ultimately be "your fault."
Good info on the 25ft, by the way - I'm always learning something new here.
Professional Member
Who are these reputable field sources you are referring too
Professional Member*
The cost of all of the foamy beer and the pour off on each pour will certainly exceed the cost for a small glycol package or "power-pak" as they call them. They usually include a circulator pump compressor and stat all built in one. Food grade glycol goes into the bin and constantly circulates thru the tubing (supply and return). It is just to maintain the temp within the lines. He is probably losing close to 1/4 of his profits down the drain with that mis-engineered system!
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